does anyone else find the idea of heaven repulsive?

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Whitefire13's picture
I guess that’s why the “cop”

I guess that’s why the “cop” kept his knee on his throat an extra 2-3 minutes after he “passed out”.

dogalmighty's picture
Yup, that was bad. The reason

@pugmama

Yup, that was bad. The reason he died likely. Either way, due to lack of blood flow or asphyxiation, he was murdered. Although, in court, culpability carries weight. In court, Mr. Floyd has culpability in breaking the law, and displaying resistance to arrest...where as the police were called to the scene because of Mr. Floyd...that culpability combined with any existing health condition, or illegal drugs identified on the toxicology report, can be used to defend the cops that murdered him...and draw light away from the treatment the police used to kill him...towards other extenuating circumstances that were brought to the incident by Mr. Floyd. Which may muddy the fact that his treatment was dangerous, and ultimately murderous. The other thing that will be proposed in court by defense, is the denial of racism. They will redirect this by saying if Mr. Floyd was white, under identical situations, the same holds and force would have been used...again in attempt to deflect and redirect thought away from the fact he was murdered.

Cognostic's picture
@Re" Dr. Baden - "Police

@Re" Dr. Baden - "Police have this false impression that if you can talk, you can breathe. That’s not true."

And none of it has anything to do with choking someone out. You can scream your frigging head off and I can choke you out while you are doing it. Stopping blood flow to the brain has nothing at all to do with one's ability to speak until the point of unconsciousness.

CyberLN's picture
What is, to me, most

What is, to me, most important to address is systemic racism.

People are dying.

Too many people find a black man taking a knee for 30 seconds at the beginning of a football game more vile than a white cop taking a knee on a black man’s neck for nearly nine minutes.

dogalmighty's picture
@cyber

@cyber

Absolutely.

I believe, that there is also a systemic mentality within policing and military, that breeds poor ethics. I pointed out the superiority culture in the military and policing structure, earlier in the thread...and how it is a perfect environment for both racism and sexism to grow. Also, that this environment is an excellent medium for an "us vs them" culture, that separates law enforcement officers, from anyone else...irrelevant of race, color or creed...which breeds the rampant cronyism and stereotypes seen in those environments.

boomer47's picture
@doG

@doG

"I believe, that there is also a systemic mentality within policing and military, that breeds poor ethics"

Having served in the Oz army (conscript), I could not agree more.

From basic training on, the person is 'broken down' to a point he will obey order without reflection. After all of the jingoistic nonsense is stripped away, one sees a soldier has ONE reason for existence; to kill other men. Because of that implicit threat, armies can wield a lot of political power**

The culture within my {combat]*** unit was politically and socially very conservative .Absurdly machismo, lacking in empathy, with a very deep homophobia.

Our drill sergeants said a lot of crap, but there is one thing I have always remembered. It stunned me at the time:
"Your first kill is like having two Sunday dinners". It stunned me because it is so callous and because it is so untrue.
Only a psychopath enjoys killing other people. Such an experience effects most men deeply.

Those in charge of armies are acutely aware of how hard it is to get a man to kill another man. That's why around 70% of soldiers (on both sides) in WW2 never fired their weapon in anger.

I'll spare you my rant about the Vietnam War

***************************************************************************************************************

** I agree with Mao Zedong "Power grows from the barrel of a gun". This model of power is called 'conflict theory'. Its opposite is 'consensus theory'

*** I joined the battalion AFTER it returned from Vietnam,I did not serve in a war zone. As a medic, I eventually met every bloke in the battalion. Each one was a 'bit off'. From a bit neurotic and twisty to psychotic. It has always been my perception that an army brings out he worst in people ,and at times, the very best. THE thing no civilian can understand is the depth of loyalty between soldiers(also intentionally inculcated) and the sacrifice they will make for their mates.

dogalmighty's picture
Agreed.

Agreed.

I was always laughed at for going against popular opinion. Racism and sexism were popular stereotypes.

That comradery is a powerful feeling however...and in part, for me, a familiar feeling of friendship in an absurd situation.

Whitefire13's picture
Cyber...systemic

Cyber...systemic

You nailed it. Never will “racism” in all its forms be wiped out (ask Cog - you monkey) - but adaption and tolerance within a system is not acceptable - it’s disgusting. To blame “bad apples” is a fuckin’ excuse. These “bad apples” give plenty of warnings beforehand - but the “system” tolerates their behaviour and attitude.

He was charged with murder.

I hope to fuck that the family sues the shit out of them so that the fear of the “almighty dollar” is so ingrained in the “higher ups” that they will have a zero tolerance policy (when guilty).

In other words (the higher ups are just “politicians”) the “cost” of continuing business “as is” isn’t worth it (hard but sad truth).

Hope to fuck there is some walking on egg shells for the pricks.

Last comment - now I’m watching Cops - take down those shirtless motherfuckers!

boomer47's picture
@White

@White

"Last comment - now I’m watching Cops - take down those shirtless motherfuckers!"

I guess I might feel that way if I lived in say New York. The coppers there scared the shit out of me. Especially after we saw a pair of uniformed cops standing in a doorway on 34th St drinking from a brown paper bag. Each had small cannon on his hip.

OF COURSE Oz has had its share of police corruption scandals. There is an ongoing national shame about black deaths in custody .

BUT, my revered grandfather was policeman from about 1912 into the late 1940's. From what I gathered, long after he had died, was that he was an old fashioned Irish Catholic copper. In the best sense.

Pop hated wife beaters, con men and communists. Was lenient with gambling 'sly grog' and prostitution. Yet not corrupt.

Possibly because of Pop I have never been afraid of our police. Nor have my dealings with police given me any reason to feel so.

Australia has 70,000 police. In this state they carry .38 magnum revolvers.( I asked) Perhaps in part because of our strict gun laws, death by firearm is relatively rare in Oz. Murder of police officers is almost unheard of.

But no, I don't think our police are perfect. I'm also aware that police culture shares a lot of characteristics with the armed forces.

**************************************************************************************************************************************

"Aboriginal deaths in custody became an issue of community concern in Australia because a disproportionate number of Indigenous Australians had died while being held in prisons or under the arrest of police. This concern was particularly acute in the 1980s, when there was a perception by some that these deaths were being caused, either directly or indirectly, by the police and prison authorities. There was a Royal Commission in 1987 which highlighted deficiencies in the standards of care to the deceased.

The term is usually used to refer to people under arrest (in police custody, on remand (pre-trial detention), or in prison after sentencing. People under police pursuit may also be included.

A report monitoring deaths in custody found that they had decreased in the ten years up to 2011, but concerns continue and are re-examined with continuing cases up to the present (as of 2019)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody

Whitefire13's picture
In Canada it’s the natives

In Canada it’s the natives that face racism. On a down side, corruption on Reserves is widespread, which further alienates. Obviously not all - however our “highway of tears” is an example.

Reverse racism is also intolerable.

Getting people to “see” a person - ugh... get past first impressions, job/status evaluation, education, religiosity - this is a slow educational process.

HOWEVER when money is spent in huge amounts on a police and prison system INSTEAD of health, education, youth programs, housing - you know SOCIETY ...you better prepare a military police system because you’re valuing and investing in the “authority” figure instead of people.

boomer47's picture
@White

@White

"HOWEVER when money is spent in huge amounts on a police and prison system INSTEAD of health, education, youth programs, housing - you know SOCIETY ...you better prepare a military police system because you’re valuing and investing in the “authority” figure instead of people."

Australia has excellent social justice systems for the general population. For indigenous people, not so much. We also have over crowded prisons.

Politicians of all stripes and many of the hoi polloi seem to be incapable of grasping the concept that a person is sent to prison AS punishment, not TO BE punished.

'The aborigine question' has stayed in the too hard box at least in 1963 when we finally began counting them in the census and let them vote. Since then we have just thrown obscene amounts of money at the problem. People on both sides got rich and little changed;.

EG : In Australia today life expectancy for the general population is 82.5 years.

"Aboriginal health standards in Australia let almost half of Aboriginal men and over a third of women die before they turn 45. At all ages, Aboriginal life expectancy is lower than for non-Aboriginal Australians."

Source: Aboriginal life expectancy - Creative Spirits, retrieved from https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-lif..."

and "Aboriginal people are massively overrepresented in the criminal justice system of Australia. They represent only 3% of the total population, yet more than 29% of Australia's prison population are Aboriginal."

Source: Aboriginal prison rates - Creative Spirits, retrieved from https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-prison...

Aboriginal society also has a terrifying amount of child sexual abuse.

Australia is a far different place from the persona we like others to see.

Whitefire13's picture
Canada...about 15 yrs less (?

Canada...about 15 yrs less (? Stats Canada says 71-72)

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4500307

In my local area, corruption within the tribal council is ripe (federal money sent for housing, etc is “kept” and not distributed so conditions in the reserve reflect this...also those that leave the reserve are in effect, “disfellowshipped” from their culture).

I try to weigh how much responsibility is shared by both parties when it comes to quality of life or education. Tell you what though - up north (border of Alberta and Saskatchewan) the reserve is an abomination - decrepit housing, poor school conditions and medical Center- but 2 big, shiny well cared for Liquor Stores. Jesus fuck. It’s sad.

So you take kids (don’t give a fuck about the color) - raise them in an environment with rampant alcoholism (and all the wonderful side effects, neglect, abuse), poor nutrition and education- no youth activity programs - and then wonder why there are gangs, suicide rates, diabetes, drug/alcohol problems, crime... oh, and again, a “disfellowshipping” from their culture (they are then considered “white”) if they leave.

Again, these two reserves are my personal experience. In BC, the Okanagan, specifically - it was much different. The tribal council made money and distributed it fairly. Also, outside of Edmonton, the reserve appears to be ran equitably.

Our system in Canada isn’t “running” the reserves, but allowing for self governance of each. Their land is “sovereign” so-to-speak.

boomer47's picture
@White

@White

Sounds sadly, tragically familiar.

Add a problem with petrol sniffing among children. I gather the problem is not as rampant as it once was due to a 'non-sniffable' petrol. Today kids are more likely to sniff glue, which is considered even more deadly..

Add the fact that Australian aboriginal culture is a gerontocracy. Although basically anarchic, aboriginal society is ruled by elders. Traditionally, elder males have had first dibs on the females , from the age of puberty. The practice is still common as far as I know.

David Killens's picture
@ Whitefire13

@ Whitefire13

First off, I harbor zero antagonism against any group mentioned, but it reveals our priorities socially.

Black History MONTH
Gay Pride WEEK
National Indigenous Peoples DAY

Although I recognize that all groups are subject to intolerable racism, I am a very strong advocate for indigenous rights and recognition. Sheesh, the first people getting just one day. Sheesh.

Whitefire13's picture
David, David, David **

David, David, David ***shaking head***

Honey, only now do they get a day...before that they had hundreds of years to themselves to practice their culture. ***dripping sarcasm***

Methinks “we” underestimate what devastating a culture can do to people -

I imagine, say huge alien ships landing. At first we think we are negotiating and fair trading and sharing with these “new comers”, but alas, they release biological agents to wipe out the majority, take the minority and “recognize us (how thoughtful), sticking us on land”. - oh, but to give the offspring a chance with the newcomers, they are forceably removed; heads shaved, dyed purple and forced to walk around naked (contrary to our customs); they are taught the alien language (or telepathic implant) and religious customs of lengthily toenails and earwax buildup. All the while, rectal prodding and embryo implants are a common practice.

Ah, given a decade or two or three or five, whatever, OOPs, the “aliens are sorry”. They didn’t “know” any better. They throw a few trinkets our way (maybe a replicator) and “treat us fairly and equally” in their society....
Hahahahaha.... we are given a
“Day” to wear clothes, put on a wig, *some might be jailed for this one* clean the earwax... we do this on our own land, and some enlightened aliens come watch our “customs” in remembrance of who we once were (and what a shame they didn’t do better as alien invaders, Oops I mean explorer/settlers) ...

On the holographic 3-d entertainment system, we don’t see “our” faces much...sorta, sometimes
-
And yes we are starting to “see” some humans get more of a “say” in the alien policies - but, ugh, human survival instinct runs deep - so some are sincere and some are “political or self-serving” ...

Oh, back to the “ONE” day, thing -

boomer47's picture
@David

@David

Here in Oz we had an occasion of staggering political cynicism and innate worthlessness which utterly gulled the new age twits.

---Our Prime Minister apologised 'on behalf of the nation' to indigenous Aussies for the stolen generations.*** Of course there was no compensation. Speeches are so much cheaper.

The 'blemish on our national history' began with the first fleet and continues today.

The last recorded instance of Aborigines being hunted and killed for sport was in 1920 as far as I'm aware.

See what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3TZOGpG6cM

*************************************************************************************************************

****The Stolen Generations (also known as Stolen Children) were the children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian federal and state government agencies and church missions, under acts of their respective parliaments. The removals of those referred to as "half-caste" children were conducted in the period between approximately 1905[1] and 1967,[2][3] although in some places mixed-race children were still being taken into the 1970s.[4][5][6]

Official government estimates are that in certain regions between one in ten and one in three Indigenous Australian children were forcibly taken from their families and communities between 1910 and 1970."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Cognostic's picture
I think singing songs, eating

I think singing songs, eating cake and ice cream while tortured souls burn in hell would be a joy. It brings back days of tossing Christians to the lions. *Yea, I know those days are a myth.* Still it is always great to enjoy the suffering of others. That's why I sit in the tree all day long and watch the alligators eat the zebras.

Whitefire13's picture
@Cog

@Cog

I eat chips and pop while watching my “fake” violent shows (that quell my own bloodlust) - damn - when I want real violence I watch spiders in my garden... or my fuckin cats! They kill and torture just for sheer pleasure.

boomer47's picture
@White

@White

"They kill and torture just for sheer pleasure."

Indeed.

I once had a gorgeous Russian Blue. She could talk.Well, I always understood her. She either didn't understand me or pretended she didn't.

I swear this true:

She had caught a mouse. She put one paw on its head and did a handstand. I took the mouse and let it go. Cat was livid. (she would swear at me when she was not happy)

A favourite little joke:

"Q: What do you call a cat with half a brain?
A: " A dog"

------Garfield

Whitefire13's picture
I have looked in the eyes of

I have looked in the eyes of the particular mouse/bird and seen the pure terror and shock from the brutality my cat/s inflict. I’ve never once tried to save the unfortunate.

They usually die from the “shock” and abuse once the cat is done “playing”. I only had 2 cats that actually ate their kills.

boomer47's picture
@White

@White

My Russian Blue taught my silky terrier to play with rats. She gifted half dead rats. Becky played with the rat until she broke it,then lost interest.

Neighbours at the back had almond trees. A Family of possums lived in one. The cat would sit staring at them for hours. She also teased the German Shepherd next door; she would sit on a fence cross beam and slowly wave her tail, just out of the dog's reach. Dog went apeshit.

Yeah cats are cruel fuckers, but like dogs, they have been domestically useful for millennia. I think it's only over the last couple of hundred years we have become maudlin about domestic animals. --It has often said that Brits love their animals more than each other.

ME? I'm dotty about my Jack Russell. The little prick gets away with murder. Destroyed another of my quilt covers yesterday. My fault entirely; I left the bedroom door open. He likes to chew off the buttons and studs, then shred that end a bit.

ablebaker's picture
As for "many included

As for "many included spending eternity praising/worshiping this god," is almost exactly what my grandmother told me when I was somewhere around four years old. She seemed to make a big deal about the fact that this would be done while sitting on benches of gold. I was old enough to know what gold was, but I failed to understand why spending eternity singing praises to god (in her words) would have any appeal just because I was sitting on a gold bench. I never thought of heaven as repulsive, but I think my ass would get pretty tired of sitting on a gold bench for eternity. I'd probably choose oblivion after the first 6000 years of that.

LogicFTW's picture
Benches of gold would make

Benches of gold would make terrible benches. Especially for long term sitting. We humans are not even designed to sit for long periods of time. We have to be trained (with much effort) to sit for long periods of time. And it has horrible repercussions on our bodies.

Ofcourse a supposed "god" and heaven idea can just magically "wave" away all that stuff. But then the question is, what is the point of the gold? If anything can be created, why gold? Why not a healthy "body" that does not require sitting around for long periods of time? Or does god in "reward" heaven like to make people sit? For obedience? Suddenly does not sound like heaven to me.

How do we know their is gold benches in heaven? Anywhere you look, the "heaven" idea is an absurd human created fantasy, and speaking of human made, god/heaven is a means of control over other people. Where all the lying to pull of this shit is oh so conveniently not verifiable in any way.

boomer47's picture
@Mork

@Mork

Hadn't heard that claim . Although a golden bench would play Jimmy with me piles.

Something I was taught at my Catholic boys school; God created time and space when he created the universe. At the end of days, time and space will cease to exist. What need have immortal and incorporeal beings of time and space?** Thus eternity would simply be 'now'

**The notion of a physical survival makes no sense to me. I was taught that yes,we were created in god's own image .IE pure spirit. So after death,we return to pure spirit. What need of bodies? You know, most days I come across further evidence that believers either never developed critical thinking skills, or that those skills have atrophied to the point they are vestigial..

freakygin's picture
@cranky47

@cranky47
"So after death,we return to pure spirit."

I always wonder
According to them, does our soul also have "Spiritual" brain?
Since our brain is needed for everything, to memorize, feel, smell, taste, see.

If our so called "Soul" is just simply a pure spirit (Whatever that is)
Without our physical brain, heaven / hell would be filled with drooling vegetable
Why bother torturing poor souls who can't feel any pain or fear?
Why bother rewarding good souls that's incapable of feeling joy or any emotion at all..

It's like threatening an apple,
"if you're tangy, i'll throw you away to the garbage disposal"
"But if you're sweet & juicy, i'll put you on a special basket"
And the brainless apple are supposed to be content?

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