Jesus is just another sun god.

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Italianish's picture
Jesus is just another sun god.

Yup. It may or may not have originated from the Eqyptian god Horus. Where ever it started, there was a long line of miracle born babies born of virgins with 12 friends or disciples who walked on water, performed miracles, died and three days later rose from the grave. Many savior deities with similar names and characteristics in relation to Jesus before Jesus.

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ilovechloe's picture
I have heard this claim

I have heard this claim before.

However due to the fact that the christian church probably destroyed all the evidence, there is very little evidence remaining of these religions. It is hard to know how many parallels there actually were between christianity & other religious myths of the time.

It wasnt just christianity that destroyed all the evidence. The muslim religion also destroyed 10's of thousands of ancient manuscripts as well.

Its a shame that so much history has been lost due to religious zealouts burning & destroying any manuscripts that did not support their religion.

cranky47's picture
@Italianish,

@Italianish,

"Yup. It may or may not have originated from the Eqyptian god Horus."

Bollocks.

This claim has been around for decades, at least. Last time I saw it was in an unintentionally hilarious documentary called' Zeitgeist'

Not only could its creator get his facts straight, he conflated correlation and causation.

There are almost always serious issues when people with no academic background start trying to write specialist books and films.

Jesus is not a sun god, nor was he born on December 25. It IS true that Christianity pinched a bunch of stuff from EG from Deus Sol Invictus, the sun god. The notion of the devil as being horned with hooves was lifted from the god Pan, a harmless nature God and god of theatrical criticism.

Christianity is a death cult, with its entire raison d'etre built on the notion of a better life come after you die.

Nor was Horus a sun god. He was the son of Isis and her brother -husband Osiris . He was originally the Sky god , but was also known as war God, hunter's god and others.

The sun god Aten/ Ra was part of the Egyptian pantheon , but not the supreme deit., The creator god was Atum.

Aten was THE main deity of Egypt only during the reign of Akhennaten ,know as "the great heretic" . His son was originally called Tut Ankhen Aten. He but changed his name to Tut Ankh Amun when he took the throne. He also restored the worship of the old gods, which his father had forbidden. Aten resumed his normal place as part of the Egyptian pantheon.

Cognostic's picture
@Italianish: For Fuck Sake.

@Italianish: For Fuck Sake.... Would you do some real research....

Jesus was an Old Testament Angel that some of the Jews began worshiping. There was a Jesus 100 years before the Christian version of Jesus. Stop listening to bullshit Astrotheology and videos like Loose Change or Zeitgeist.

4 Times Jesus Appeared as an Angel in the Old Testament
https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bible-study/4-times-jesus-appeared-as-an...

Paul, in his writings, does not know Jesus had an earthly presence. Paul's Jesus was an Angel who died and was crucified in heaven.

Reference Bart Erhman and Richard Carrier.

Italianish's picture
I would love to do research

I would love to do research only every time I look up a topic about if the Bible and Jesus is false my search is filled with Christian websites that defend them both.
I got extremely lucky when I found actual websites that shared the contradictions.
That’s why when I watched zeitgeist last night I felt like
I hit the lotto.
I’ve read things like this in the past that even
Tho from what people say Jesus isn’t a sun god I already knew about the virgin birth from other gods and about the flood being copied from the epic of Gilgamesh.

Cognostic's picture
@Like anything you read you

@Like anything you read you must, MUST, engage your critical thinking skills.
RICHARD CARRIER ON ZEITGEIST .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn7TEoA9ark

Go to 8:14

cranky47's picture
@Italianish

@Italianish

"I would love to do research only every time I look up a topic about if the Bible and Jesus is false my search is filled with Christian websites that defend them both."

That is either a lazy excuse or a lie. I have never had any problem finding independent sources. . Try changing the parameters of your searches. Perhaps be more specific in your search. In any case, the claim " I couldn't find anything" is an unacceptable excuse .

IF you want to be taken seriously it's necessary you meet the same standards for evidence we ask of everyone else .

"That’s why when I watched zeitgeist last night I felt like
I hit the lotto."

Sadly, I'm unable to believe the claims a made by Zeitgeist. You believe? How nice for you. Try proving some of the claims.

"already knew about the virgin birth from other gods"

Don't think so.. Again; proof?

cranky47's picture
@Italianish

@Italianish

"Where ever it started, there was a long line of miracle born babies born of virgins with 12 friends or disciples who walked on water, performed miracles, died and three days later rose from the grave. Many saviour deities with similar names and characteristics in relation to Jesus before Jesus.'

Point of order; when making such a claim it is good practice to cite your source , even quoting short relevant sections. If, as I suspect, it was from a video, please provide a link to that video if at all possible. .

I want to answer this claim in two parts:

(1) So what? Are you claiming meaningful coincidences? If so you need first to prove there is such a thing.

(2) I don't believe the claim . You have the burden of proof. Let's see it.

How many is a long lis? 20? 10? 5?

To be fair ,let's say five. Please list five occasions on which those conditions were met AND at least ONE credible independent source for each claim.

I also have a suggestion about the source of your information. Spend 10 minutes on line checking the credibility of your source. Have you bothered to check those claims for credible independent sources? .

An example. I've said the documentary 'Zeitgeist' regurgitates that kind of nonsense. There are actually several documentaries of that name and a movie (2007) To be fair, I have not seen them all.,I have only watched one about religious mythology. The rest seem to be about a range of conspiracy theories.

The free Zeitgeist series claims to have had over 100 million views. So what ?That in itself infers nothing, but rather implies it is simplistic and superficial. However, that's only my perhaps biased opinion. IF I thought any claim was credible, I would need to check it via independent sources or at the very least verify the sources (if mentioned) used by film maker. That's of course assuming a significant interest in the topic. It's over 30 years since I studied religions and general mythology at university, so I'm no longer as interested as I once was.

For me to accept such claims ,they need to meet the same standards of evidence I require from any history book or documentary. Generally speaking, I find documentaries are rarely objective.

To give you an idea; pick up any history book or other non fiction book you can find . Good ones will have two sections at the back. References for any quotes used in the text and a bibliography giving a list of all works consulted as research.

THE BOTTOM LINE: simply making unsupported claims as you have done, twice, is not good enough if you want your claim to be seriously considered. Right now, your claims about Jesus as sun god and other myths may be simply dismissed as woo.

ilovechloe's picture
@cranky47

@cranky47

I think you are being a bit hard on Italianish. I think he is genuinely here to learn. Try not being so cranky!

cranky47's picture
@lovechloe

@lovechloe

Mkay. Sorry to Italianish if I was too rough.

Perhaps a little to do with having so many apologist nitwits here that it's not always easy for me to tell the difference.

Also perhaps a little because "Zeitgeist' has been around for many years, yet still sucks people in.

Anyway, I will try not to be such a grumblebum.

Italianish's picture
@cranky47

@cranky47
You’re right.
@ilovecloe
Thank you for defending me.
@all reading this.
I apologize to myself first on behalf of falling into the caged religion.
When I was younger, before I even got into religion I’ve been in abusive relationships with two people, didn’t know how to deal, then I opened myself into religion based on a fear of hell.
I was quite intelligent before all of this, I was single minded. I questioned things and had my own view on religion and god.

This might seem like an excuse, however to me it is the reason why I was the way I have been.
Between the abuse and religion I lost so much of myself, the parts that I thought made me whole.
I feel like I lost myself and my mind because of these things, without excuse I know it’s my responsibility to pick myself up and become a better version of myself even better than I was before any of these things came about.

I lost a lot.
So I apologize for my unintelligent ways of wasting all of your time.
It’s not intentional, I can’t stress enough that I lost a lot of me in this process and without further explanation I wish for all of you to understand that I have, and I am going through self rehabilitation.
Most of you have helped me in tremendous ways.
I haven’t had a critically thinking mind for years either, believe me when I say after reading my posts and comments on here I notice that it looks unintelligent and messy.

I can’t necessarily blame anyone else other than myself, I made a lot of mistakes in handling the situations in my life with no foundation to stand on. If it wasn’t the first thing it was the other, then shortly after both the bad relationships and religion.
It fucked with my head.
I’m doing what I can to fix it, I won’t come on here to respond to anymore topics or create my own for a while, for I feel like I’ve made a fool of myself in front of many intelligent and kind people.

Edit:
Please don’t feel bad. None of you are jerks to me. I felt the need to express myself and
I have been recently a bit more self aware of the damage that has been done.

Tin-Man's picture
@Itialinish

@Itialinish

Hey, dude, chill a bit. Step back a bit, take a deeeeep breath, and just try to relax. You are here to recover and get your head reoriented, right? Well, you have picked a damn good place to do exactly that. Trust me, you are NOT the first/only person to come in here with your brain all in a twist due to religious indoctrination. And one of the primary goals of this site is to help folks recover from that condition. Your apologies are not necessary here, because you have done nothing so far that requires an apology.

Breaking away from religion can be a very difficult thing to do. (Believe me, I KNOW.) Some people are able to handle it better than others due to various factors, while some folks may take months or years to fully recover. To put it bluntly, religion can really fuck with your mind. And sometimes getting away from it can be a disorienting and frightening rollercoaster ride. You aren't "making a fool of yourself". I certainly don't see it that way, at least. You are simply trying to re-learn how to think for yourself now. Many people are just too lazy and/or too scared to make the effort to do that, and so they continue to stay on the "easy path" and let others think for them. You, on the other hand, are making the effort. Despite the confusion and pain of the process, YOU are at least brave enough to face the challenge of fixing the damage caused by your religion. In my opinion, that is very admirable, bud. You might want to consider giving yourself some credit now and then. Just sayin'...

Cognostic's picture
@ITALIANISH: Save yourself

@ITALIANISH: Save yourself future apologies and embarrassment by posing things as questions. "Hey guys, I read this or that. What do you think." There is nothing wrong with taking a stand on any topic, but when you do, be willing to eat crow. My apologies are on the site as well as those apologies of people who have apologized to me. The internet, in my opinion, is a great place to stick your neck out. Better to get a close shave here than in public. Don't stop being wrong!!! It's a great way to learn. At the same time, if it gets you down, just phrase things a little differently and people will not come at you so hard,

Cheers!

Mikhael's picture
Hey friend, I see you're

Hey friend, I see you're searching

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11161

Here's some information relevant to what you're on to, but critically backed and thoroughly vetted

Try reading works by Richard Carrier, David Fitzgerald, Robert Price, Elaine Pagels and Bart Ehrman

Cognostic's picture
And all of the Above -

And all of the Above - mentioned by Mikheal - have videos on YouTube. When you hear something that sticks out, post it in the forums and see how the people around here respond. No one on the site gets away with unfounded assertions. You are not alone!

Mikhael's picture
What the great ape said. The

What the great ape said. The folks here have...honestly far too much patience than anyone should. Even old man. Seriously this is a small forum but it's great

Cognostic's picture
Old man has patience! HA!

Old man has patience! HA! I've never seen it. Racing around on that damn trike of his, but crack shining in the sunlight. Oh! Did you mean he had Patients? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VosZ_-4WqTw He would never survive the patience test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpU-Cs7WccI

Mikhael's picture
I'd probably stick around

I'd probably stick around cause I would feel bad if I left xD

Italianish's picture
Thank you.

Thank you.
That’s what I like about all of you is that you’re straight to the point honest and sincere.

Tin-Man's picture
@Italianish

@Italianish

To reinforce what Cog said, as long as you are being honest and sincere here, we will be honest and sincere with you. And, like it or not, sometimes the truth can sting a little. Still, a bit of sting now and then is better than living in delusion, in my opinion. However, if anybody here starts getting the impression you are here just to jerk our chains.... *shrugging shoulders*... Well, I believe you have been here long enough to see what happens to folks who try that... *chuckle*... Anyway, hang around and keep learning. Isn't easy sometimes, but it is well worth it in the end.

Mikhael's picture
I'm glad you like it. These

I'm glad you like it. These assholes have done so much dragging my own head out my ass, they have quite a well of knowledge

Cognostic's picture
You are going to get a whole

You are going to get a whole lot of "straight to the point " around here. You will get it until people decide you are jerking their chain. At that point, well ..... shit changes. As long as you are honestly inquiring and really want to listen, (you don't necessarily have to agree but if you disagree you must do so with logic, rationality and evidence), you will get honest replies from this group.

Italianish's picture
@tin-man&cognostic

@tin-man&cognostic
I am the real deal, I don’t like mentioning that I feel like I lost my mind to anyone.
I think I started believing when I was 20-21 in my prime.
And it didn’t take long before I started to lose it.
It’s lasted up until I started coming on here to find answers. (27 now)
Lately I’ve been recovering and even laughing at the idea of god. Nonstampcollector on YouTube, his videos are amazing, both for learning and laughing. He has some serious points that I agree with. Before I came here my research was based on contradictions, I found that god was terrible to
his creation, it was also nice seeing that some people had similar issues that I had.
My Christian friends would often praise the lord for what I did by myself with my own power, they would often encourage me to do things that only related to god. Like reading the Bible and seeking him, even as a believer I hated seeking him and reading the Bible. I
Hated how my conscience often flared against me when it came time to “give god the glory and worship he deserved” to be honest I was ashamed of him back then for no reason at all and I felt I had to worship him to get rid of the shame so I Went outside and did it because I thought that big act of overcoming my shame in him would make the problem I had go away. So embarrassing...
There’s also a verse

Luke 9:26 26Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

I am human and sometimes my emotions would get the best of me when I was obsessive of my thoughts and the Bible, hearing terrible voices that condemned me and feeling like there was no hope even if I was “saved” I felt like I had to obey to keep my salvation even though adding works to faith to earn salvation was lukewarm and so on and so forth. It’s not that I don’t like to do loving things to people, it’s that I hate doing it as an ultimatum.
Something like a girlfriend leaving me because I’m not showing her enough love is one thing however
John 3:36 is another (if you’re dealing with issues like mine or worse don’t read this verse)
I don’t wanna post it it could cause serious reactions of people who are still trying to recover.
Besides I felt neglected by the biblical God, and went into hospitals that he seemed to leave me to myself to fix the issues that were in me.
I fixed it. Yes I got help from people and I’m not ashamed to admit so, I finally got a clue.
I will occasionally joke around yet I am not jerking anyone’s chains nor am I a troll.
I wish I could cry and let it all out but even my emotions are in a jumble and I find it hard to cry.

Edit:
@Mikhael thank you too man I’ve read some
Of your struggles too and I appreciate your
Care and compassion on my part.

Cognostic's picture
I'm a fan of

I'm a fan of nonstampcollector, you can't go wrong there. Watch some of Bart Erhman's Lectures and Richard Carrier is another favorite of mine. These guys are Historical Biblical Scholars. Not Theological Biblical Scholars. There is a big difference between the History of Religion and Religious history or Philosophy of religion and Religious philosophy. Stick with the FACTS and not the APOLOGETICS.

Mikhael's picture
Hey cog, speaking of Ehrman

Hey cog, speaking of Ehrman can I get your opinion ? I know he gets dragged a fair bit by Carrier, Price and other mythicist for not doing his research on the subject, but how do you feel about his works as a whole? There's a couple books I'm wanting to check out but I wanna make sure I invest in someone sound

Cognostic's picture
Ehrman is a scholar. He will

Ehrman is a scholar. He will give you good factual information. Where he disagrees with Carrier is on the existence of Jesus. Ehrman works for Department of Religious Studies, Prinston Theological Seminary. He has a vested interest in the idea of Jesus as a living being and holy teacher. Carrier disagrees and regards Ehrman as dishonest in the interpretation of Historical data. They do not like one another.

Recently Ehrman wrote a book about "Did Jesus Exist." Given Ehrman's credentials and his reputation as an excellent historian, his support of the existence of Jesus was woefully inadequate. Carrier was expecting a challenge and what he got was bullshit apologetics and bible passages.

That is pretty much the rift between them. Price met in a debate with Ehrman and it what hate at first sight. Now Ehrman refuses to debate Carrier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kOu2s31xt4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kOu2s31xt4

Agree or disagree with their points, they are both scholars. Whatever you do, don't throw the baby out with the bath oil.

Mikhael's picture
Thanks for the info, that

Thanks for the info, that clears it up. And I definitely have a baby-bathwater tendency so thanks for catching that :p

Italianish's picture
Thank you everyone.

Thank you everyone.
@tin-man.
I remember some of the things you let me know about finding your way out of religion.
So I want to ask, is there still hope of efficient recovery(even if it could take a lot of time) ?

Tin-Man's picture
@Italianish Re: "...is there

@Italianish Re: "...is there still hope of efficient recovery(even if it could take a lot of time) ?"

Huh?... *puzzled look*... Absolutely, dude. I'm living proof of it. Granted, I was in my late forties before making my final break, but I didn't have anywhere near the headstart you have right now. However, ever since escaping, I have been happier and more "clear-minded" than I can ever recall being during all those past years. It's been an absolutely fantastic feeling of freedom to no longer have that darkly oppressive burden of fear and doubt constantly plaguing the back of my mind. I think more clearly now and treat people better now than I ever had before, and I love it. So, yes, you CAN recover.

And allow me to let you in on a little secret.... It is totally up to YOU on how quickly you make that recovery. In other words, you can make it as easy or as complicated as YOU choose. It is entirely up to you how long you want to carry around all that doom, gloom, and doubt. And one of the first things you need to address with yourself is, "WHAT is THE main thing/reason keeping me from letting go?" It is different for everybody. For me, it was strictly the threat of hell that hampered my escape all those years. What is it for you? Figure that out and address it, and none of the other stuff matters.

Mikhael's picture
You definitely can. I know I

You definitely can. I know I'm not the best example considering I spent my winter in a panic but I'm honestly doing a lot better now than I was even 2 months ago.

My thing was I left years ago but I covered my fears with another religion, and just shoved all my worries away. And when they came up finally I wasn't prepared to deal with them. I never even questioned the history of Christianity or the bible till, like, November

Italianish's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael
It’s good that you’re out of the deep water.
I For one am grateful that the Bible is false.. even though I was a Christian I feel like I hated Jesus and the Bible, they took away from my natural freedom as a human being. I felt like god was basically saying “love me or die” if someone doesn’t love me I just move on, I don’t have to subject them to an eternal death of torment.
You ever play video games?
There’s a game that I like, it’s called Final Fantasy X
And it has a religious aspect to it, where the main antagonist I I believe (unless I’m wrong) is a false god, a human that became some time of entity after death that was worshipped, prayed to and followed. People were close minded in the game and at the end you actually fight it, and he was a punk for a final boss.
In the game you can face off against super bosses and they’re like summoned creatures that the religious summoners evoke to try to destroy you because you opposed their religious way of life, and their god.
It’s freaking awesome in my opinion.

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