Jesus is just another sun god.

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Mikhael's picture
I don't play FF, but my room

I don't play FF, but my room mate does, so I know some of the story by proxy , and that symbolism isbserously awesome. Media is so cathartic

My wife drug me in to Anne Rice's disaster vampire series, and so far my favorite character is Armand, raised Renessaince era Orthodox, nearly became a monk, spends his immortal life torn between hysterical devotion and absolute rejection of God, nearly losing his life to it at one point, scaring himself literally sick under the watch of icons. I fucking /relate/

Italianish's picture
Is it on Netflix ?

Is it on Netflix ?

Mikhael's picture
Oh no, books, been listening

Oh no, books, been listening to them on audible. interview with a vampire had a good movie, at least, great adaptation but they changed everything about Armand. Hard to cast a highly sexual vampire in an underaged body and whatnot :p

Italianish's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael
Ahh, I’ve learned that the books are usually Better anyway
Btw did you happen to research the claims that Richard Carrier made from those links you sent me?

Mikhael's picture
I mean I don't know what

I mean I don't know what research I could do that would be better than a PhD. These are claims made in On The Historocity of Jesus, which passed peer review, meaning that nothing written in that book was found to be obviously false by others in his field. Carrier knows his shit, and corrects himself when found wrong. Of course he is not infalible but as of yet his work in this field has not been definitively challenged

cranky47's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

"I mean I don't know what research I could do that would be better than a PhD. These are claims made in On The Historocity of Jesus, which passed peer review, meaning that nothing written in that book was found to be obviously false by others in his field. Carrier knows his shit, and corrects himself when found wrong. Of course he is not infalible but as of yet his work in this field has not been definitively challenged"

Mate I think you're underestimating yourself and overestimating academia. Good research has nothing to do with being highly educated per se.

Research is for me was first about learning to use a good library. University libraries may be better for some of the more obscure areas of interest.,. You should be able to read anything you like , but just won't be able to borrow books. If not, a major public library should be able to get just about anything you want through intra library loans.--AND there is a vast amount of relevant stuff available free on line . Perhaps just begin there.

Then it' s a matter of motivation, patience and persistence.

While at university, I was stunned at the number of professors, and ordinary Phd's who were arrogant arseholes and/or quite hopeless outside of their discipline. One in particular philosophy Phd could not be trusted to cross the road by himself. Really.

Going by your posts, I have no doubt that you would have little real difficulty doing excellent research. I suspect that for you it is more a matter of confidence than anything else.

Perhaps spend a bit of time online looking at say Youtube videos and web pages on 'How to conduct university research' or something similar.

I had the chance to apply for a special mature age university programme. I wasn't going to because I thought I wasn't smart enough to go to university. As luck would have, the bloke in the flat alt next door was a clinical psychologist. I mentioned the opportunity and my misgivings to him. He laughed out loud. He actually said "Mate ,you'd shit it in" -and I did, straight A's in every subject. It was only confidence.

Do give it a go, I think you might surprise yourself. There are some pretty good minds on this forum. Pretty sure just about anyone here will be happy to help you .

Cognostic's picture
I would agree with your

I would agree with your assessment of Carrier. He went into the task assuming that Jesus was a real character and then simply let the facts lead him to his conclusion. You can pair the claims made by Richard with other Historians. Most of the claims are shared. Where there is deviation is with the mythosist position. Richard has attempted to defend it. (Jesus was a myth.) But in his lectures, he is fine with the idea that Jesus may have been a man. Richard has made assertions like, "The bible is just mythical stories" and he basis this on the structure of the stories which was unique to mythology of the time.

Anyway, it is not that other historians do not disagree with Richard, they do. What is important is the level of documentation and support, readily available to the readers or followers of Carrier, that defend his position.

One of the biggest contentions of Richards work is the use of Bayes Theorem. Assessing probabilities for the starting points using this technique can be quite subjective. Theists have done the exact same thing using the exact same techniques and concluded that Jesus was god. Everything is contingent on the defense of the baseline data one chooses to use.

Mikhael's picture
I don't put too much stock in

I don't put too much stock in the Bayes numbers, if for no other reason than my smarts are word based moreso than numbers and it's honestly very difficult for me to keep up when he starts talking in numbers and equations and probability. It's just not an aspect of the debate that carries weight for me.

I think one who isn't tied to theism would find little of Carriers more well known works and ideas to he contentious on terms of raw evidence, even if they disagree with where the evidence goes.

For example, he is far from the only historian hold enough to say the entire Jesus passage of Josephus is a forgery , and not just part. Even Ehrman now agrees that it's likely Paul saw Jesus as an angel or other pre existing being, even if they disagree about his historicity.

The thing is, you should not fall into the fallacy of popularity but at the same time the more people who uphold an observation of history the more likely it is that there's some legitimacy to it.

That's a reason I like Fitzgerald too. He isn't a historian himself, but a historical writer who Combs through and compiles the work of others, showing the overlaps

Italianish's picture
Well it all seems believable,

Well it all seems believable, I took the liberty in purchasing one of his books, now I have a foundation on which I can compare his research to the claims made based on whatever historical evidence is true.
I hope to find an authentic source of evidence rather than something made up.

Cognostic's picture
"I hope to find an authentic

"I hope to find an authentic source of evidence rather than something made up."

It's all in the footnotes. Who is being quoted, it is reliable? When was it written, has new evidence been brought to light. Why was it written? Who opposes it and why? It's and endless search that can actually take a lifetime, but with enough good information under your belt, you can take and hold a firm position on an opinion.

Italianish's picture
Do you have the book? I have

Do you have the book? I have the kindle edition, I will check it out thank you.

Mikhael's picture
I have the audio version; I'm

I have the audio version; I'm able to listen to books at work so it was super convenient and I'm pretty sure I can download a PDF of his sources

It's a brick of a book, heads up. Its 28 hours audio

Italianish's picture
That’s a lot of time to spend

That’s a lot of time to spend listening, however it’s worth it because I can use his material and research the claims. The thing is looking for
A reliable source of the historicity of Jesus and other deities he was supposedly manufactured from.
My book is over 700 pages haha.
I felt relieved hearing of his information on a
Video. I have yet to find his information to be true, if it is I will have a form of happiness in my life, I’m trying not to believe it all as fact, I don’t want to have my hopes up.
I’m determined to prove to myself that the Bible and Jesus arent true.
I find myself at different levels of consciousness everyday. Sometimes high sometimes low.
On one hand I’m okay, on another I get the repression’s of emotions dwindling in my previous irrational blind belief in it. It hinders my growth I believe mindfulness helps, I believe you had struggled similarly in the past, I
Found that this meditation helps and you can meditate this way during any activity in the day, you don’t even have to sit Indian style to do it.
I want to encourage you to try it, it helps in bringing me to the present moment and I’m not stuck in the past or worrying about
The future.

Edit: it also helps to deal with the acceptance of thoughts and emotions instead of resistance (which creates more repression)

Mikhael's picture
I think I can understand your

I think I can understand your hesitancy here. I am often skeptical of the wrong things, thanks to my indoctrination.

Here's a fact that might help;

Very early church father's knew their Jesus was modeled on other deities. They knew these deities were around before Jesus, and their only explanation was that the devil planted false religions

((I think this was Justin Martyr))

Cognostic's picture
I live by audio books. I

I live by audio books. I play them at night before sleeping and all day long as I do other things. They are to me what music is to many. Lectures, debates and audio-books are my mind candy. And when I hear weird shit that I don't grasp or think is false, I am off to the internet to try and understand. It beats the hell out of sitting about watching TV shows. I am woefully behind the curve when it comes to Netflix, HBO series, Sit-coms, or any other socially wasteful way people spend their time.

Mikhael's picture
I don't do a lot of standard

I don't do a lot of standard tv. There's a few shows I watch with the family but I'm more for short YouTube videos or audio books or podcasts. My attention span isn't what it use to be pre-trauma so long movies or ongoing shows are hard for me to focus on

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