Hello, I have been atheist for 4 years now after a tragic event that left me question god. as most a theist when I came to the conclusion that god doesn't exist I was very passionate about my new found believe but with time life went on and it become a normal thing. I am still closeted atheist because I live in Islamic country. however I have been struggling lately with morality. and I am not talking about the common sense morality such as cheating is wrong and kindness is right. I am struggling with much deeper issue like premarital sex , excessive drinking or the lack of modesty. if god doesn't exist then there is nothing wrong with any of them. but I believe that our body are sacred and we should respect ourself give in too easily. my struggle right now whether or not this is my moral or this is ideas from islam I couldn't wash away. this become such a problem for my that caused an big argument with my friend, we both atheist yet she sleeps around drink a lot and I don't approve of her life, just because we don't believe in god that mean we have no respect to ourself. I understand that this is her life and she can do whatever she wants. however I think I have the right to be uncomfortable with it all.
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
As an atheist, you can say that you, not some god, owns your body. You get to do with it what you choose. You get to decide if sex is something you want to engage in, if drinking alcohol is something you want to do, what clothing to wear, and so on. It’s completely up to you. Do what you find acceptable to YOU. But understand this....everyone else gets to make those decisions for themselves as well.
The respect you talk about...perhaps you should consider respecting your friend as an autonomous person who is making decisions right for her instead of offering respect only if she copies you.
I understand and one hundred percent agree. I don't mind the occasional drink when it doesn't affect our mind. sex I have issue with if it is with strangers. my struggle is with my community sex and drink is the focus as of god was the reason before but not we have no reason to respect ourself. I hate the idea that just because we are atheist that nothing really matter. the argument happened after 2 years of my being uncomfortable with sleeping around and going to club nightly and leaving with strangers.
If you have a problem with a behavior, don’t do it. If she doesn’t have that problem, is it really any of your business?
Can you tell me why having sex outside of marriage is disrespectful of oneself?
You wrote, “I hate the idea that just because we are atheist that nothing really matter.”
I’ve been atheist all my life (many, many decades) and I can assure you that there are a ton of things that matter to me.
the point I wanted to make when I talked about my friend wasn't meant to be the main focus but rather the affect of my struggle. I didn't give any detail about the situation but jump straight to the ending, as I said 2 years ago she decided that this is what she want to do. before be decided that we fully understand we no longer believe we will always have a healthy discussions about anything and everything. then she mets group of atheist that all they do is night club and sleeping around and I supported her through out this two years I thought she wants to experience. and ever since this is all she talk about. I just start telling her that I am not comfortable with that part of her life and I would like to talk about other things but we will argue that I never let go of the islamic rules. here where my struggle begin. I don't know if I really believe in it or she is right.
Sounds to me you have yet to rid yourself of the Islamic supposition of male supremacy.
1. Her behaviour is none of your business and has nothing to do with gender
2. Her behaviour is none of your business and has nothing to do with gender
3. Her behaviour is none of your business and has nothing to do with gender
That you have concern for her well being is the act of a compassionate human being, which I am sure you are.
When tempted to say anything about or to interfere in her life choices refer to points 1-3 above.
Apart from that, welcome to the world of atheist thought...and it aint a 'belief' or a 'lifestyle', it is a denial or lack of belief in the claims made by theists of all stripes.
Stay safe in your land, be human, think and say ethical and moral things that are your very own choices.
I don't think my moral has any think to do with gender, even for a guy I don't feel comfortable to have sex just because the urge to have sex. I think as intelligent being we should have the self control over our urges not because a god said so but we are more then that.
@ Jay
Well done, and what you do with your genitals is entirely your business. The proviso being that you do not harm anyone else in your sexual antics especially children and the vulnerable.
Because you think " as intelligent being we should have the self control over our urges not because a god said so but we are more then(sic) that." that does not give you the right to judge or comment upon any other individuals' choices.
As I said, if in doubt: say this sentence:
1. Their behaviour is none of your business and has nothing to do with gender
2.Their behaviour is none of your business and has nothing to do with gender
3. Their behaviour is none of your business and has nothing to do with gender
You can see I did change the prefix to make the sentence gender neutral.
The message is the same...BTW "even for a guy"? there goes your gender bias raising its flag again...you really have to examine your deep set conditioning...think a lot before opening your mouth....then refer to points 1,2 and 3 above.
I think you are being harsh. especially since I never said I am right and she is wrong but rather said I am struggling with my morality that I am not sure whether they are mine or been force on me.
Howdy, Jay. Welcome to the AR. You have come to the right place for some good advice. You simply have to be open to it, though. That being said, Old Man is not being harsh in any way. He is actually being very polite. In all fairness, however, I do realize there is a potential language barrier, and that the "tone" of written text can sometimes get lost in translation. With that in mind, rest assured that Old Man is not trying to be harsh.... (not at the moment, at least... *chuckle*...). He typically reserves his harshness for those who are being intentionally ignorant... *grin*... Anyway, enough about Old Man. Let's talk about you...
For starters, I want to say it is a good thing you are concerned about your friend's well being. Very honorable of you. No doubt you would be there for her if she was in danger or needed a friend. But as Cyber and Old Man have already said, as long as she is not harming you or others, her social life is really not any of your business. She is free to have as much sex as she wants with as many people as she wants. Her body. She can do with it as she pleases. If that makes you uncomfortable, then that would be your problem, not hers. And if you are continually nagging her about it, she will eventually tire of your criticism and "disconnect" from you entirely. The thing about being an atheist is that the ONLY thing atheists have in common is the disbelief in any god(s). That's it. Plain and simple. Anything outside of that is open to each individual's personal preferences and tastes. Just because YOU do not approve of what she is doing does not mean she has to conform to your likes/dislikes to make you happy or gain your approval. So, pretty sure we have beat that dead horse enough for the moment. Now, about you struggling with your morality...
Let me ask you a few things. Do you make it a habit of stealing,cheating vulnerable people, bullying, randomly assaulting innocent people, forcing yourself sexually onto unwilling women, or kicking puppies just for shits and giggles? I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say (hope) that you do none of those things, nor any other things of a similar nature. By the way, did you happen to notice what all of those horrible acts have in common?... I'll give you a hint.... They are all acts that cause some form of physical and/or psychological harm to others. (Okay, I gave you the answer. But this isn't exactly a game show, so there was no prize to win or anything like that.) Anyway, point being, if you are not doing any of those things, and you are actually concerned about the well being of others and care about being good to other people when you are able, then CONGRATULATIONS! You are a pretty good morally balanced guy. As for any other things outside of harming others that you have a personal preference against doing (drinking, multiple sex partners, gambling, etc.), well.... that is simply your own personal preferences. And if you are still having conflicts with any of those things based on your religious indoctrination, than I am afraid that is something you will have to work out on your own. As much as it may suck, only you can fix those particular "arguments" in your mind. And just to let you know, I am telling you this from personal experience, because I am very familiar with how it feels to deal with that battle in my own brain. That being said, from what you have told us so far, I do recognize you are still being influenced by the religion from which you escaped. And, like I said, those are things you will have to come to terms with on your own. I can tell you one thing, though. Hanging out around this site can go a long way toward helping you fight that battle. Just my personal opinion... Glad you decided to join us, Jay.
thank you for your kindness, being closeted is very difficult to not be able to be open about my believe. it is a constant battle to separate what I truly believe and what I been taught. she was the only one I could talk to and we would have long talk about all matters but then when ever we meet it's all about the new group. for me I was a religious person, I pray a lot I look to god for guidance. and I was not but I am still the same person. I am as person never changed but she did and I am struggling with that. is this all that matter sex and drinks. just because god doesn't exist doesn't mean we don't have standers.
@ Jay
Hmm...Harsh? No, direct and forthright I think.
I cant see a way to say "butt out of anyone else's choices if they are adults". Judging is what religion does best, leave it to them, you will be happier.
. You are a human and seem to be a gentle, compassionate friend. Your morals as a human prevent you from harming by action or inaction and behaving in a 'good' manner when it benefits us all.
Nothing else is your business. If your friend is on a path of self destruction, believe me when I say there is little you can do to change their choices. They are not yours to change.
As a friend, support their well being but realise judging them, by any but their own standards, is entirely false, and also unfair to both of you.
@jay_1992
Is premarital sex a sin?
it is not a sin, it's very complicated. let's start by saying the choice of word is wrong for one reason which I don't believe in marriage. especially not an islamic guided one. but for the lack of other word I am using it. and now let my explain why I have problem with sleeping around. if I would to have sex with someone and The Who doesn't matter but rather the act itself and I am doing it because urges or biological reasons there is where I have problems. to have sex with someone where The Who matters and the act doesn't here it's intimate and pure.
I am clear and open that if you are looking for fun and dating and having meaningless sex I am not the match for you and you can move along. and as much as care about my choices I appreciate it when the other one is having the same value as me, I am not holding it against them. however it's plus.
the use of the word premarital is not the right one but I am using it to mark a milestone in a relationship.
as I said it's complicated and I tried to simplify it as best as I could.
@jay_1992
Well I was hoping you would dismiss my question by telling us something like: there is no such thing as sin!
well English is not my first language and reading your question I answer though my language by saying it is not. and I thought the reason behind you question was to understand my reason I didn't realize that I been tested on how atheist I am. I thought by saying I am atheist it's implied I don't believe in god, sins, heaven or hell. but don't worry next time I would be more clear of what I mean when I say I am atheist and exactly which religion aspect I don't believe in.
@jay_1992
Well I was just trying to be sure. I've meet several atheist who still pay lip-service to the values of their former religion.
I don't understand what "pay lip-service to the values of their former religion." mean.
Sorry, that probably wasn't the best phrase to use when talking to a non-native speaker.
FYI: paying lip service means to repeat or endorse something, but in words only (not in actions).
It isn't uncommon to find atheists who still support (at least in their words) the moral rules of their former religion.
I am not sure what that entail. however for me there are moral rules form islam that I still follow, the different is I am not waiting for a reward or afraid of punishment but rather think it would make me a better human. I don't think they get their moral form god but from thousand of years of being decent human so it's not like they invented it.
for example charity, muslims pay charity yearly based on their income. I still do that, however I choose education for children instead of islamic charity.
or the amount of respect to hold to mothers. I respect my mother but not because I want a reward. what I am trying to say is that there is no problem to follow any religious rules if they make us better human and we do them because we want to be a better human and not because a religious believe.
According to jay's page, jay is female. So this isnt about male domination but rather general observations regarding behaviour.
Regardless, I agree jay, being an atheist does not mean we should not respect ourselves but thats a choice for each of us to first identify then act on in whatever manner we see fit.
Whoops! In light of Grinseed's announcement, I believe I owe you an apology, Jay. I was thinking you are a male. Thankfully, my advice does not change, as it is intentionally meant to be used for either gender. Still, I really do need to make a better habit of checking profiles before I respond... *chuckle*....
@ jay
I have been where you are. I was once religious, gave that up to experience life, took up drinking, smoking, recreational drugs, and casual and varied sexual relations.
After several years I eventually I gave it all up, which was damn hard as I had been heavily addicted to it all. I recognised none of it made me happy or healthy and I was losing control.
I retained sense enough not revert to religion.
I knew that the results of any sort of addiction are the natural if physically unhealthy and even dangerous outcomes of such activities; there was no sense of morality involved. Perhaps it was more a matter of mortality I was concerned with and without a belief in an afterlife that made it all the more imperative to seek change.
I had started hating the hangovers, the constant taste of cigarettes, the tiredness, the inability to think straight and the lack of any meaningful relationships.
In short the decisions I made were all about what I was comfortable with, ME, not with any rules set by any god.
You are correct, humans have lived moral and responsible lives long before the major religions of today began enforcing the edicts of their imagined gods.
What we identify as aspects of a good life will often intersect with religious doctrine but only because the religions have stolen them from how our forebears have naturally wanted to live their lives.
One aspect of atheism is taking responsibility for yourself, not relying on the edicts of some imagined deity to inform your thoughts and actions. This can result in achieving no less a moral life than the most pious theist.
and welcome to AR, good to have you join us.
Jay-1992: You were atheist because you questioned god? You do understand that the previous sentence makes no sense what so ever. How could an atheist question god when they do not believe in god of gods?
RE: when I came to the conclusion that god doesn't exist I was very passionate about my new found believe but with time life went on and it become a normal thing. (Really? How did you prove to yourself that god does not exist. Atheists are people who do not believe in gods. Do you perhaps mean that the god you happened to believe in at the time did not seem to exist?)
RE: " I am struggling with much deeper issue like premarital sex , excessive drinking or the lack of modesty." How in the hell you are rating these things as "deeper" is a mystery to me. Nevertheless... lets move on. " if god doesn't exist then there is nothing wrong with any of them. "
Premarital sex; (Agree, nothing wrong with it between consenting adults.)
Lack of Modesty: (Who is doing the judging? Lack of modesty is not the issue. Appropriate modesty for the time and place is everything. I grew up on the beaches in California. If you went nude on a beach you would be arrested. If you wanted to be nude on a beach, you went to one of the nude beaches. There are dress codes in school so students can focus on education and not on the fashion show going on in the adolescent world of discovering who they are. Modesty is always contingent on place, time and circumstance,
RE: Excessive drinking: All you are really saying is that you have ea at all who you are as a person. Are you a person who drinks to excess and then justifies their bullshit obnoxious behavior or not.
Here is the real issue for you. Are you a moral person or not? You either have moral boundaries for yourself or you do not. You do not get morality from a book or from a religion. Morality is something inside yourself, it is not dictated to you. I do not drink and I have never been a drinker. I bartended for 20 years and I have tried everything. I hate drunks, men and women, and hold them completely accountable for all they do, drunk or sober. You are known by the lines you draw in the sand. If you want to drink to excess and be a drunk, that's fine. It's your life. There is no magical moral dictate from a god above controlling you. Only you can decide who you will be as a person. You will do this with or without religious bullshit.
RE: " I believe that our body are sacred and we should respect our-self give in too easily." What the fuck are you on about?
"Give in." Give in to what. You either drink or you do not drink. You either have sex or you do not have sex. Either you act appropriately modest or you do not act appropriately modest. You do this because of who you are and who you want to be as a person. "Giving in" does not make any fucking sense at all. No one is forcing you. No one can force you. These are all normal human behaviors and either you opt to do them to some degree or you do not. (You seem to be delusional and still trapped by the religious "All or Nothing" mind set. You can drink a bit too much on some occasion or be immodest on another and it is not the end of the world. You make your apologies and you learn from any mistakes you may have made. Nothing you are saying in any of this is anything but marginally significant.
RE: "I don't approve of her life" WHO IN THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? You don't get to go around approving or disapproving of the lives other people choose to lead. Go fuck yourself! Now you are just being an asshole who thinks he knows what is best for everyone around him. (With that said, I happen to agree that partying and getting drunk every weekend is a fucked up way to live a life. IT IS NOT MY LIFE! I have told close friends that they drink too much and when I go out with them, they know I will not be drinking booze with them. If I say yes or no to a beer, my choice will be respected or they can go fuck themselves. (This brings us back to my original premise - YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE.) You are unclear about your own boundaries. LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE THE FUCK ALONE AND FINED OUT WHO IN THE HELL YOU ARE.
RE: "just because we don't believe in god that mean we have no respect to our-self. " GET RID OF THE FUCKING "WE." Say what you mean. "Just because I no longer believe in a god, I see no reason to get drunk, engage in sex, or act immodestly."
CON -FUCKING - GRATULATIONS. Now leave your friend the fuck alone!!! Now you have to decide whether or not , given who you are as a person, whether or not you want to hang out with people like your friend or whether it is simply time to find someone else to hang out with. WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN DAMN MORALITY AND LEAVE YOUR FRIEND ALONE.
RE: "I understand that this is her life and she can do whatever she wants" NO! You do not understand this or you never would have made this post. You might have been intelligent enough to suspect it, but you certainly do not understand nor accept it as a simple fact of life. In this life, you do not get to control other people. The only thing you have control over is yourself and your own reactions to the world around you.
RE: "I have the right to be uncomfortable." Yes you do. (THE FIRST TIME). The second time, you have put yourself in that situation knowing full well the results. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT WHAT SO EVER. Imagine I go to the mosque and begin telling people there that Petra was the actual birthplace of Muhammad and not Mecca. (This is historical fact supported by the Quaran and all archaeological and historical evidence.) So they yell at me and tell me to get out of the mosque. The next service I do it again and am surprised at the very same reaction. Okay, the first time I might not have known what was going to happen but on the second time, I knew full well and I put myself in that situation. If I don't like what happened to me or the way I was treated, I can only blame myself for doing the same stupid shit stuff a second time.
How many times do you plan on inserting yourself in your " friends" life? If you do not like what is going on, move on with your own life and leave her the hell alone.
@jay_92
Do you live in a Muslim country? Just curious. Makes a huge difference in being a Muslim apostate. Even so, abandoning Islam must have ben very hard for you, especially if you come from a devout Muslim Family. I come from a devout Catholic family, leaving the church was incredibly difficult.
On the existence of god: to say "there is no god" or" I believe there is no god is a positive claim, and attracts the burden of proof.you may reasonably say" I don't believe" , but to claim "there is no god ' is another matter entirely.
Your comments about morality suggest you remain a 'cultural Muslim', still attached to muslim life values, especially regarding sexual morality.
You may keep those values for the rest of your life ,and that's fine .That means to me that you will not lie, cheat steal, or harm others, and will treat all people with kindness and respect. In my opinion, what is not Ok is to try to impose your values on others.
The morality , sexual behaviour and sexual preferences of others are not your concern, unless they harm others.
At this stage, you seem a bit confused about ethics and morality. I suggest you go to Wikipedia and look up some pre Islamic Greek schools of philosophy. Such as: Stoicism, Epicureanism, and Skepticism.
If you hang around atheist forums for a while, you will discover that generally speaking, atheist will treat you with more understanding, kindness and respect than many Muslims and Christians. At times some atheists will be rather blunt. In my experience this tends to be from honesty and perhaps impatience rather than an intent to hurt your feelings,
I think your journey may have just begun. I wish you every success, and hope you remain the essentially good person you seem to be .
Cranky47: by what basis do you say that an apostate who still clings to old social mores is less likely to cheat, lie, harm others and be respectful?
Who here is still clinging to old unproven beliefs?
Totally propagandized to think those cultural mores are good, and make a good person. We still have non- strongly religious people around where I am, parroting nonsense about good Christian ways, and I say "what? like stoning disobedient children, burning witches and gays, and taking slaves from the nations around you? Or freely ignoring all that because the post-enlightenment society you live in makes all that illegal?"
@cranky47
That is a "positive claim" like not playing chess is a skill. The burden of proof is always on the person who makes the claim that something that is unevidenced is true, not on the person who doesn't believe the claim. The people who say "there is a God" are the ONLY ones who are making a positive claim, and therefore THEY are the ones who need to prove that a god does exist. You don't prove negatives.
The only thing I think people in such circumstances should be worried about is safety.
Is the adventurous one being vulnerable to some personal crime? Respecting yourself means boundaries, and even someone who's enjoying sexual freedom shouldn't be hurt or treated with less than perfect respect and self-authority of choice. The big issue with sex is infections.
Most importantly; sharing bodily fluids is risky, and some of that stuff you'll carry for ever.
Ask any medical professional the lengths they go to, to avoid fluids, and sex professionals need to do all that too. Yes, it's possible if both (all) the people involved are careful about barriers to avoid fluids, but not many hetero people know how, and if they're from a place that doesn't teach proper modern sex ed, they're all ignorant, and sharing pathogens around...
They're not just sharing germs with one person, but everyone they've been with, and everyone they've been with... They've obviously never seen real or filmed herpes open sores on the genitals... Any so-called "cold sores" around the mouth or face are that sort of thing.
We hear cautions and the horrifying response "Oh I know I've been exposed" and the speaker goes on sharing freely...
To hell with religion or morality, they gave up respecting themselves and others long ago. They want to act like modern sophisticated people, and they're not careful about protecting others or themselves. One thing that's true just about any place that keeps track, is that gays and sex professionals are more careful, more knowledgeable, less likely to "cheat" less likely to be risky. That's one less thing to respect anti-gay preachings and propaganda for: the same ones are against sex education and free spread of information about such safety precautions.
All you can do is take care of yourself, don't swap spit, and teach open detailed graphic sex precautions even to children of the youngest age because they're going to start trying things out unless you're keeping them locked up alone all their lives.
I promise that if you teach primary school kids what herpes and gonorreah are like, and how to use latex and not touch fluids, they're less likely to experiment, not more.