This is my first post. I am 51. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, left it when I was 30. I am a homeschool teacher. In my area, the public schools are all Catholic and the private are Protestant. We chose the option of parent directed homeschooling for a variety of reasons and the kids always have the option of a regular school.
My 8th grader, who has shitty punctuation skills (and will have to clean this opinion piece up) was given the assignment of writing his opinion on anything. I had expected an opinion on why Batman was better than Superman. Shocked to shit when I read this...
Attachments
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
What's interesting is that kids tend to come up with these ideas all on their own. They are completely unaware of their history. Other thinkers. More importantly, the counter arguments. Basic magic 101, as above so below. Still, it's a great opportunity to help a young mind to continue being curious. "Nice idea, but what if we are just a brain in a vat on some alien spaceship?" "What if everything was magically brought into existence just three minutes ago, alone with all our past memories?" "What's the difference between what we can imagine and what is real?" "How do we tell the difference?' "How do we know when to hold onto a story and when to let it go?"
IMO --- Always encourage an active imagination but taper it with rationality.
I found his opinion interesting because it didn’t contain magical thinking, yet we have had those types of discussion. The simulated universe, for example...yet he didn’t include this idea in his opinion ie player outside “simulation” and “we” are in the game.
Ever notice that the world seems designed? Ever notice that every thing that comes into existence has a cause? With just a little leap of magic it all functions just like a cell. If you can't see the magic, he never will.
Growing up as a JW I believed in a designer, or god... but as I’ve grown older the operative word “seems” isn’t a basis for accurate information. There are groups that believe the world is flat Because it seems that way. I asked him what he would say if I said “Doesn’t it seem the world was designed”...his response to me was simple. Yes, it does from our point of view because we survive and live in this environment that we have evolved/adapted to, so in a sense, evolution designed it perfected for us.
Perhaps we have a different idea of magic. I enjoy a magic show, illusionist or mentalist...and I enjoy the feelings of wonderment which are shared with the kids.
@Whitefire13
Can't read the document.
Yes, kids get their own ideas;(my mother told me) At age 4 I had an invisible friend called Mr Bailey , who I would blame for every naughty thing I did.
That was also the year I painted a picture of God. (really) The painting disappeared.
Had some friends in Canada who homed schooled. I even helped when I was staying with them on holiday. There were no formal lessons. The kids had to go to public high school. The were assessed as ahead in every subject except maths, in which they were at at the appropriate level.
I do not have children. .. Consequently I will not inflict my childless expert's opinions.
click on the document and open in a separate page. Something happened to the site and now that is the way you have to do it.
His essay was about his “immortality”... how his molecules will be passed along throughout this universes’ existence. He speaks of how his memories will be gone and after a few generations, the memory of him held by others will be gone...but this doesn’t leave him without joy in his life but an appreciation and desire to leave things better. Very quick summary.
It’s a pic of his essay...I assume nothing is showing??? I love the painting of god...just couldn’t find it?!?! Lol.
@Whitefire3
I can see the page, but the print is too fine to read.
Pretty profound stuff for most people, impressive from a kid.
I think I was about 30 before I realised that after the last person who knew me dies, it will be as if I never existed. Not much more than 60 years from now. ( I have a nephew who is 25)
Oblivion and obscurity seem to be the fate of most human beings. Does it bother me? No, not really. I'll be dead, and that's not an experience as far as I can tell.
Was it Carl Sagan who observed we are all made from star stuff? I've never found that at all comforting.
Lol not very comforting. Yes it was profound... more than I expected and it was open for him to write about anything.
Thanks for your comments. I think you can enlarge the pic with your fingers if you’re using a phone app
@Cranky, dont know what sort of computer you have but may I suggest right click on the letter and select 'open link in new tab' then you can enlarge it.
@Whitefire, that is one profound bit of writing and despite the punctuation, what your son wrote makes easier reading and more sense than some translations of ancient Greek philosophers.
Oblivion is nothing. Think about all the people who ever lived who left no trace or very little behind them. Its probably not comforting but I feel it takes the sting out of that desolation of oblivion when you consider what a dirt common shared experience it has been for the majority of all mankind.
Fame is overrated.
Show of hands.... How many people here remember what it was like before they were ever born?... *looking around room*.... Anybody?... Anybody at all?... *scanning room once more*... Hmmm... Okay, how many folks actually remember BEING BORN?... *looking around room again*... Dammit, Cog! Put your hand down! You're so full of shit! Old Man, elbow Cog's ribs for me, please... *shaking head and rolling eyes*... So, anyway, point being, as far as I am concerned, once I die it will be just as it was before I was ever born. If I have any concerns at all about my death, they would be 1. The manner in which I die, and 2. concern that my wife (if she is still living) will be okay in my absence. Aside from those two issues, whether anybody else ever remembers me or not is very much a moot point, in my opinion. However, even IF by some remarkably unlikely chance there is some sort of "afterlife" that we experience when we die, there is absolutely NO WAY I could possibly and reasonably claim what I would do in that situation. Matter of fact there is no way ANYBODY could ever make that claim. Granted, I like to THINK I would handle that situation in a manner befitting my current mindset. Fact is, though, is we have no way of actually KNOWING anything beyond what we have before us right here and right now. Sure, I rather enjoy speculating about such things from time to time as a form of cheap mental entertainment. And I like to believe I will be considerably stoic and confident in my stance if I ever found myself standing before some type of "god" as portrayed within the more popular religious dogmas. Bottom line, though, is that it is all just pure speculation and "philosophical what-if" mental exercises. Regardless of what "lies beyond", however, my primary concern NOW is that my wife will be okay if I should depart from this world before she does.
Edit to add: ... *embarrassed grin*... Oh, my apologies. Welcome to the AR, Whitefire. Despite the punctuation/grammar errors, I rather enjoyed your son's paper. Pretty dang insightful for such a young age.
@Grinseed & Whitefire
I had similar thoughts as Whitefire kid when I was in my early 20's.
Profound stuff, especially coming from a kid. I think you should be real proud of your kid.
To me, while it may not be very "comforting" that all we do will likely make little to no impact on anything within 100 years of us dying.
Even someone as famous as say, Albert Einstein, while his "name" and ideas may live on for a few centuries, he is still dead, he personally gains nothing as he can experience nothing, and it certainly possible within 1000 years no one will know of Einstein at all, almost guaranteed within 1 million years, even for the most famous of us, that they will fade to nothing. And at the cosmical scale of things, 1000 years is a mere blink of an eye when the time scale of the known universe is compared to your average human lifespan.
So to me, anyways, my goal is not what I leave behind, and not "will I be remembered," but instead to live my life and be in the moment instead of worrying about if some people will remember me after I died.
It is of zero use to me, today or in the future to be remembered except to perhaps stroke my own ego today and feel more "self important."
Realizing there is no reason to believe in god and the accompanying afterlife ideas, makes me realize the importance of living in the moment, instead of worrying about what happens to other people, (that will also eventually die,) memories of me after I die.
To me funerals are for the living to grieve the loss, they are not for the dead person. My after death instructions reads roughly like this:
- if survived by my wife, and if she is capable: my wife makes any and all "funeral" decisions that she wants to make, that will help her and others that care for me through the grieving process. My goal is to make my passing a tiny bit easier for those that care for me that survive me.
- If my wife cannot or chooses not to, the decision making falls to next closest living relative that is capable and interested.
- I also have a set of instructions that if people want to go by instead of making the decisions for themselves, again, all in an effort to ease my passing to those that may grieve my passing. I want my body donated to science/medicine if it will be helpful, if not, the cheapest and most ecological way to dispose of my dead body readily available at the time. I then encourage all interested parties to get together have a giant party to celebrate THEIR finite lives, and maybe a message at that party that reads something like: "Life is short, carpe diem."
They have asked me what I think throughout my life...I show them facts or establish first some reason for my thoughts before I spout out some “answer”. I have told them I have bias based on my experience with JWs so if you want to know what they believe ask your gramma or aunt (who are). The boys have gone to their meetings, read their materials...
Once they have formed their own thoughts then we talk... or they talk, I listen lots and ask questions...
Hmmmm Tin man - I’ve been in 2 serious car accidents and have had upteen surgeries ... i chose going under the knife ( you know dying) you’re already out....
@Whitefire
You're a former JW, huh? Interesting... We happen to have a JW church (temple?) about ten minutes from our home, and I had the pleasure of a visit from a couple of them just a few weeks ago. (See my thread "Two JW's brightened my day today" in the debate room.) Before they left they asked if they could return another day to continue our discussion, and I happily agreed. Sadly, no sign of them since then... *dejected sigh*... Still, I remain hopeful, nonetheless. They did leave a booklet, at least, and the wife and I went through it making notes. Any chance you might have a few pointers for me should they ever return?... *chuckle*...
And the punctuation is fuckin’ embarrassing. I’ve tried to explain there isn’t much point in having thoughts if you can’t communicate it well in writing...but my age gap doesn’t get the whole texting shorthand....
Uhhhmmmm he wants to be a doctor so maybe the punctuation won’t matter, they have shitty writing so I’ll tell him just to write everything (although his handwriting is actually legible)
@Whitefire Re: Grammar/Punctuation
Yeah, the newer generations never cease to disturb me with their lack of writing and communication skills. I have a stepdaughter in her mid-twenties who absolutely refuses to even ATTEMPT to read any type of book. Sure, the occasional pop-culture magazine or clothing catalog might pass through her hands, but usually it is there only long enough to determine the website she can visit to read or shop online.... *face palm*... Ugh... With her generation and those that are following, it is as though spelling and reading comprehension are inconvenient annoyances.
The irony is that we now live in an age where communication technology is more advanced than ever before. Sadly, though, while the MEANS of communication are rapidly increasing, the ABILITIES of those doing the communicating seem to be decreasing at an equal rate... *chuckle*... At the rate things are going, I can totally see verbal communications devolving back to grunts, growls, hisses, and clicks; while written communications will become nothing more than a combination of emojis and acronym abbreviations. Punctuation and grammar be damned!... lol...
@ Tin-Man
"Yeah, the newer generations never cease to disturb me with their lack of writing and communication skills."
Have been saying for years that texting especially has produced a generation of mono syllabic illiterates .I need to take care not to disparage the young,--old farts like me have been doing that since the time of Socrates at least. .
Of course, the oldies were right about baby boomers; we liked to use Tu quoque fallacies to criticise the older generation. The bunch of entitled bourgeois wankers called hippies would sit around smoking weed and bragging about how they were going to change the world--and a bang up job they did too----this the generation who produced Hillary and William Jefferson Blythe 111 Clinton , and of course Donald Q trump.
Apart from that, it's my generation which has made the planet all but uninhabitable for our descendants-----and it is the young, in their millions, who have become committed to unfucking our environment . So the kids are OK as far as I'm concerned., even if they do tend to come across as inarticulate troglodytes on a case-by-case basis .
How old is your kid?
Yes punctuation is important, but as long as he has the skill to write at a high level that communicates thoughts well when needed by the time he finishes schooling I would not be embarrassed, but then I do not have kids so it is hard to relate.
Tin Man... I spent years as a pioneer ( 90 hrs a month door knocking). They’re called Kingdom Halls. Your advantage is you know nothing of their beliefs and they realllly want to teach you the “truth”. Ask them lots of questions and get them to research their answers to you. They are very limited in their research material so you may actually get them to research outside the organization’s material.
What literature did they leave you? If they return, which if they are good JWs, they will. a) they get to count you as a return visit. b) they get to count the literature they place with you c) they get to count the time d) and maybe they may get to eventually count you as a bible study (every JW goal) .... so they should be motivated to come back. I’ll check out that thread
@Whitefire Re: "What literature did they leave you?"
Thank you very much for the info. I attached a pic of the booklet they left with me. Actually learned a few things about the JW dogma while making notes in the book. Fairly informative, but leaves room for many questions. And I am very curious to see how they might field those questions. Maybe I'm just a little warped, but I actually enjoy playing dumb and asking "innocent" questions that cause the "teacher" to have "Oh shit!" moments.... *snicker*...
One thing for certain, I definitely caught them off guard with some of the questions I asked and statements I made. I derailed their script, and they were scrambling to find answers/explanations. Makes me wonder how long they had to debrief and get reprogrammed when they returned to their Kingdom Hall... *chuckle*...
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Having troubles posting...
Jesus fuckin’ Christ my long post doesn’t post I get an error message
Ok. No lengthy answer... keep it simple and friendly. It’ll get their brain juices flowing.
The tree of life point is awesome. Why create it? If Adam and Eve were created to live forever? Ate from tree of knowledge... barred from tree of life. Had they not eaten from the tree of knowledge why have a tree of life? Were they created to die?
Jesus’ sacrifice equal to Adam...
Adam sinned. Passes sin to kids (dented bread loaf). Jesus equal sacrifice. We get a chance to live forever.
Do I have to believe in Adam to have sin? Did Jesus remove dent in bread pan (immediately)? You’re a smart guy - see where I’m going...
Keep it all simple as they are very simpleminded - I was. I wasn’t stupid though - just very limited in what I was allowed to think and research
Omg omg omg! That was torture! Holy fuck the JW org thinks worldly people are stupid!!!!
I only watched the one video on Jesus ransom sacrifice and it’s about the same except they are using a business man. Don’t use the bread loaf pan or they’ll know you’re talking to a disfellowshipped person and will shut down. They won’t listen to a thing you say.
Ask if the good business man’s actions resulted in immediate effects for the poor employees. Why over 2000 years and no effects from the greater businessman Jesus....I mean how long can you go without paying bills and buying food for your kids?