The new guy on the block

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Keith Raye's picture
Yes, I take your point. Do

Yes, I take your point. Do you mind if I ask how you know that about Roman crucifixions?

And yes, leadership by example is a good method too. I've used both and each has their value, although teaching by letting the pupil lead can be much more enjoyable sometimes, and the lessons learned sink in that much more deeply,

mykcob4's picture
@KR3F
Keith Raye's picture
mykob4: I've checked with

mykob4: I've checked with Wiki and I think your history professor was probably right. Wiki says both methods were used regularly but it amounts to the same thing - your point blows a hole in my tentative theory, because if one logical step is wrong, then all of them are. Thank you for showing me that. At least I don't have to worry about it any more !!

mykcob4's picture
Wasn't trying to blow a hole

Wasn't trying to blow a hole in your theory. I can't actually remember what your theory actually was.
I amazed how the crucifixion is solely attributed to the death of jesus. The Romans used crucifixion as a political signal that it would be very dangerous to go against Rome. They got the idea from the Persians. Of course, conservative Americans want to use waterboarding for exactly the same reason. There is no proof that any type of capital punishment or torcher ever achieves the desired effect. Coercion of a confession or information only yields lies. Capital punishment has never stopped or even slowed any crimes that it was meant to deter.
As far as christ goes there is no proof that anyone by that name was executed by the Romans in that area at that time. The Codex Sinaiticus (the oldest known bible) doesn't even have the resurrection so it is doubtful the crucifixion and certainly the resurrection did not happen.

curtisabass's picture
KR3F

KR3F
Greetings from the heart of the bible belt -North Carolina.

Keith Raye's picture
Man, they sure to get God

Man, they sure do get God real bad in some places, don't they? How is life for someone like you in a place like that? I'm very lucky. I live in one of the most tolerant societies in the world. We don't even see any street preachers here any more, because they wouldn't survive very long if they tried it. Non-religious folk outnumber the religious here now and most folk accept gay people as being more or less normal.

Keith Raye's picture
I've been thinking about the

I've been thinking about the point mykob4 brought up but, despite that I'm going to purse my theory anyway because it might just be an interesting one. All we know about Jesus comes from the christian bible so you might be tempted to regard it as unreliable anyway and not worth discussion on that ground alone. But I think there's always at least a grain of truth in all myth and legend and that it does a disservice to the intellect to dismiss them out of hand.

If Jesus did exist, he and he followers were certainly rebels against the belief and doctrines of their times. Let's suppose that he was a charismatic man with a genuine gift for expressing complex ideas in a simple language that ordinary people could readily understand and identify with. What was it that he was teaching that was so dangerous to the established order that they not only killed him for it, but killed him in such a horrifying and humiliating way? Remember that Jesus wasn't a christian - the idea of Christianity hadn't even been thought of then. The history of that religion, like many others, is soaked in blood and stained by torture, abuse, genocide and insatiable greed. It would be typical of the founders to turn a man's ideas against him, to twist and distort those teachings to their own ends. If his ideas weren't dangerous, they could simply have ignored him and his name would have been lost in the dust of history. So what were those ideas, and why were they dangerous? Could he have been teaching some form of atheism? Fantasy? Yes, maybe. Maybe you'll say the whole idea of Jesus is simply religious propaganda and not worth even considering - that the bible itself is fantasy, so why bother with it? These are valid and legitimate points of view, of course. But if they are, then so is mine. Just a thought, guys, that's all.

algebe's picture
He was teaching that everyone

He was teaching that everyone was equal in the eyes of his god, that people could have a direct relationship with a god without going through priestly intermediaries, and that everyone owed their allegiance to just one lord. Those are very subversive ideas in despotic or theocratic societies. Those stories about the widow's mite and the Good Samaritan were also very irritating to some very dangerous people.

The idea about having just one lord got the first Japanese Christians into hot water (often literally) in the 16th century. In Japan's feudal society, there was a strict hierarchy of lordship all the way up to the Shogun. Unfortunately for the Christians, the bible translators used the same word for "lord". I imagine the Romans similarly took a dim view of a lord above Caesar.

Keith Raye's picture
Ah yes, that's what were told

Ah yes, that's what were told. But is it the truth? I think my suggestion makes as much sense as anything you'll find in Christian doctrine. Possibly more. The assertion that Jesus 'died to wipe away our sins' is so laughably ridiculous that even a child could tear it apart - and many do.

Keith Raye's picture
Oh, and one other thing while

Oh, and one other thing while I'm throwing hornet's nests around. If we abuse our planet to the extent that we upset the balance of nature, then nature itself will make corrections to restore that balance. There have probably always been gay people around, but there seems to be more of them around now. It could be that they're just more visible than they used to be, but it could equally be that their numbers have increased. So could homosexuality be one of nature's answers to overpopulation? The more gay people there are, the fewer children there will be ( unless you heteros really go at it ) and the population will fall. So maybe people shouldn't see us as aberrations, but as friends. If my theory is correct, then that particular natural correction is a a gentle one. The other solutions that nature is going to throw at us will be far more severe and dramatic.

Flamenca's picture
Homosexual behaviour in

Homosexual behaviour in similar proportions is also observed in several other species, such as bonobos, one of our nearest cousins with nearly 99% DNA identical to ours. Whoever says is unnatural is an ignorant.

I don't know if Nature is trying to correct us by sending more of your wonderful fellows ;) I just think it's easier now in Western countries to be out of the closet, and that could be all...

And yes, procreation issue needs to be addressed. Politicians/religious authorities should stop being so cynical, and let sex education be thought properly. Forbidding sex education is more serious than closing Chemistry class ... For most of us people, sex -regardless its frequency- will be a meaningful part of our lives for many years. Learning Chemistry is only vital just for those weird Chemists and some fancy cocky cooks.

algebe's picture
@KR3F: "It could be that they

@KR3F: "It could be that they're just more visible"

I think that's the real cause of the apparent increase.

My theory is that during the early evolution of our species, the presence of a certain percentage of childless uncles and aunts as extra food-gatherers and defenders of the young was vital to survival.

I grew up in a homophobic culture and developed the usual prejudices. I never really thought about it much until the principal of my high school in New Zealand got all the boys in the assembly hall and solemnly forbade us from listening to "Lola" by the Kinks. The sheer inanity of that prompted me to think, so I read some stuff by Quentin Crisp and started to question all the hate. I still don't really understand gayness, but that's no reason to hate and hurt, is it.

Flamenca's picture
..the presence of a certain

..the presence of a certain percentage of childless uncles and aunts as extra food-gatherers and defenders of the young was vital to survival.

Interesting theory...

algebe's picture
@Angiebot: "Interesting

@Angiebot: "Interesting theory..."

Not really original, though.

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/media/releases/2010/vasey.cfm

Keith Raye's picture
Then I'll help you out. The

Then I'll help you out. The one and only difference of any real consequence between a straight man and a gay one is this:

A hetero man can only ever fall truly in love with a woman. A gay man can only ever fall truly in love with another man. That's it. That's all there is.

I'm no authority on lesbianism but I guess it's probably the same for the girls too,

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