No Religious Gods, Just Higher Beings - A Greater Way of Thinking

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Zig Zag's picture
No Religious Gods, Just Higher Beings - A Greater Way of Thinking

I have had this discussion in the past with my religious family and friends when they ask me if I believe in God. I always tell them I do not believe in a religious God, but I do believe in the high probability that higher beings exist. Now let me explain by higher beings I mean living beings or forces who exist in the universe who have capabilities and knowledge that our primitive human minds cannot even begin to comprehend. These higher beings can be considered aliens, or life forms that exist in or out of our dimension who may or may not have any influence over Earth and our human lives. The reality is we just do not know yet, and it is very primitive and wrong to say only one God exists and he wants us all to follow a religion, but it is also primitive and wrong to say there are no higher beings at all. If there are higher beings there must certainly be more than one, the universe is too large, and has been around too long to deny the existence of other advanced life forms. These higher beings most likely do not even know our world exists, as I am sure they do not listen to our prayers. When you think about it this way of thinking has much more potential, and has a lot more to offer than any religion does. Instead of the existence of one God that religion offers, it is actually much more probable that an infinite number of higher beings exist with capabilities much greater than any religious God has. This is what it truly means to be an atheist/agnostic, to take the universe in for what it really is, and it is really beautiful and awe inspiring to be able to see the bigger picture.

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David Killens's picture
There may or may not be life

There may or may not be life on other planets. There may or not be intelligent life out there. Zig Zag you are stepping beyond that and speculating on an ultra advanced intelligence. Right now you have not offered any proof, just speculation.

Speculation unsupported by any facts.

All of this falls within the category of the undiscovered. Mankind is just beginning it's exploration of the universe, let us see what unfolds, because so far this universe has offered up a wonderfully strange universe.

But if I was to speculate, I am hoping we discover that planet full of beautiful naked women with large breasts. And soon.

Zig Zag's picture
I guess I am just very

I guess I am just very optimistic when it comes to my speculations, and I completely understand that they are speculations, but I speculate on probabilities, and the odds of higher beings existing in the universe are very high when you consider how mind boggling huge our universe is, and how long it has existed. There is nothing wrong with speculating, and theorizing, I am just offering a way of thinking for those of us who enjoy speculating and thinking of the endless possibilities out there.

Grinseed's picture
....umm...we already have a

@ Dave

....umm...we already have a planet like that...

Tin-Man's picture
@Grin Re: "...umm...we

@Grin Re: "...umm...we already have a planet like that..."

Depends on which beach you visit.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@op

@op
I heard that your higher beings dream up super higher beings to be in awe of. And those beings dream up super-duper higher beings. Ad infinitum.

It's higher beings all the way up!

cranky47's picture
"What if" and hypotheticals

"What if" and hypotheticals --" may be fun exercises in mental masturbation, but I fear of limited practical use.

LogicFTW's picture
I seen some religious

I seen some religious apologist go down this path, (not saying you are one Zig Zag.) For them I call it "defining their god out of existence."

While I commend not granting some ridiculous religion and/or powers to this greater being, it still just an idea, completely without any sort of defining merit.

Yes, the universe is impossibly large, and chances of many things, no matter how remote could happen. But when we start exploring those kind of possibilities all sorts of crazy possibilities pop up. Then I like to talk about the problem of space. Its a problem of distances, and as time is a measure of change (like distance,) it is a problem of time as well.

The universe is still expanding, even if there was some advanced (much greater than us humans) life form out there, at this time (seems very possible, but we simply do not know.) Even with all their great advancements, them having any effect on our lives here and now is very remote. To me it is like worrying about some grain of sand buried deep within the earth, that if it were to lose friction and shift, it might cause a small tremor on the surface somewhere.

All we can do to even begin to comprehend greater, is to perhaps compare our intellectual capability as human race compared to that, say of ants. Ants working together can do amazing things, but humans... can send people to the moon and back, with plans to go further. Do the astronauts care about some ant hill in a jungle somewhere while they are flying 1000 miles over head? Probably not, probably not even care to find out.

Mutorc S'yriah's picture
@ Zig Zac

@ Zig Zag
I guess I am just very optimistic when it comes to my speculations, and I completely understand that they are speculations, but I speculate on probabilities, and the odds of higher beings existing in the universe are very high when you consider how mind boggling huge our universe is, and how long it has existed. There is nothing wrong with speculating, and theorizing, I am just offering a way of thinking for those of us who enjoy speculating and thinking of the endless possibilities out there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But previously . . .
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@ Zig Zag
I do not believe in a religious God, but I DO BELIEVE THAT HIGHER BEINGS EXIST, (my emphasis).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In summary, what you are really saying, (or ought to be saying), Zig Zag, is NOTHING MORE than that what you believe is: "that the probability, and the odds of higher beings existing in the universe are very high when you consider how mind boggling huge our universe is, and how long it has existed".

This does not, (or ought not to), equate with: "I DO BELIEVE that higher beings exist". That goes a step too far, because it may be that NO higher beings exist, no matter what the probabilities are. Furthermore, it is also quite possible that lesser beings exist elsewhere in the universe. But I'd stop short of saying that I believe any beings other than on earth exist. They might exist, and it wouldn't surprise me if they do.

I shall remain that way, (agnostic on the matter), until some evidence turns up and shows that some other beings, higher, or lower, or less, or greater, actually do exist ELSEWHERE in the universe. Until then, the possibility or probability of such a thing will not raise an eyebrow with me, but that is short of claiming to believe in the truth of the existence of such beings. Until then there it's OK to say . . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@ Zig Zag
There is nothing wrong with speculating, and theorizing, I am just offering a way of thinking for those of us who enjoy speculating and thinking of the endless possibilities out there.

Mutorc.

Grinseed's picture
@Zig Zag

@Zig Zag
The topic, if only vaguely entertaining, is pointless.

You are basically suggesting: "The universe is too big for just one god, therefore there must be multiple variations of "higher beings" with "much greater capabiities". This is a sort of sci-fi version of St. Anselm's "think of the greatest being you can imagine, and because you can, a greater being must therefore exist in reality."
In answer to both, bullshit. Either case, in the absence of evidence, is a faith claim.

I am an old curmudgeon but my understanding of evolutionary processes denies the concept of "lower or higher' categories of life where ever it might prosper in the universe. Evolution does not aim at "higher". Its primary concern is survival of populations.

If a civilisation of "higher" being exists and can heal cancer with a thought, would they still be "higher" if they reproduced like Ripley's Aliens, feeding from within the still alive and alert bodies of lifeforms, like, well, us?

I submit the equally valid, and opposite, view, that WE, humankind (oh how boring) just might be the very "highest beings" in all the known universe. Maybe we are as good as it gets with our overly-developed mutant frontal lobes. We are pretty amazing. We create gods after all.

And yes the universe is huge but all of it is receding from us at the Hubble Constant, 71 kilometres a second for every megaparsec of distance between us; meaning the further away they are, the faster they recede, so wave bye bye now while they might still see us. Its not likely we are going to meet them. And with that in mind its the confounding physical aspects of the universe itself which staggers my imagination far more than airy-fairy speculations about 'higher beings'.

J.B.S Haldane, atheist evolutionary biologist, paraphrased Arthur Eddington, the renowned astrophyscist with "My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." The claim for greater beings, following Anslem's dubious argument, and in view of the astonishing things discovered about the universe, is hardly queer, but pretty mundane; the stuff of every science fiction story since H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds".

Haldane also quipped "The Creator, if He exists, has "an inordinate fondness for beetles." Maybe beetles are the truest form of the "higher being", at the very least they certainly outnumber just about every living creature.

OK I conclude my killjoy grumblings and will leave you to your Star Wars imaginings. Enjoy, and may the Farce be with you.

Zig Zag's picture
Whether we ever get to meet

Whether we ever get to meet them or not is not the point, the point is the probability of higher life forms existing in our universe is very high considering how large our universe is and amount of time it has existed. I understand this is all speculation with no evidence, but there is no evidence out there to suggest higher life forms do not exist. Plus this type of speculation is much better than the fairy tale based faith religions have to offer.

Tin-Man's picture
Hey there, Zig Zag. Welcome

Hey there, Zig Zag. Welcome to the AR. Interesting concept you've got going there, but like you said, it is all just speculation. Sure, it's fun to think about at times, but nothing that is going to affect my life in any significant way. I've never used marijuana or acid before, but I imagine this would be a fantastic topic for discussion with a good buzz going and maybe some Doors music playing in the background... *stoned voice*... Heeeey, grooooovy maaaan... *chuckle*... Rather along the same lines as speculating, "Like, wow, dude... You know, like, what if, man, like maybe our whole universe is, like... you know, man... only, like, a single grain of sand, man, like trapped under, like... *long drag off doobie*... I don't know... *cough-cough*... *passes doobie to the left*... like maybe under the fingernail of, like, some giant cosmic giant, maaan?... Faaar out, dude, right?"

Seriously, though, the universe is indeed larger than any of us could ever comprehend. And my personal opinion is that it would be silly and arrogant to think we are the only life forms within it. However, whether those life forms are intelligent sentient beings with advanced technology, or if they are merely simple single-cell organisms clustered in shallow tidal pools along some alien beach we may never know. But until such time that we do know for certain, it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. And even if such discoveries happen to be made within my lifetime, they would likely not get much more than a, "Hey, that's pretty cool," reaction from me. Still, it is fun to think about at times.

Zig Zag's picture
Hey Tin-Man thanks for the

Hey Tin-Man thanks for the warm welcome to the AR. You guys seem open minded and open to discussion which is cool. I look forward to participating in the forum more. Although this post was based on speculation, you'll see as I continue to post more often that most of my ideas and thoughts are based on facts and reality.

Tin-Man's picture
@Zig Zag Re: "...you'll see

@Zig Zag Re: "...you'll see as I continue to post more often that most of my ideas and thoughts are based on facts and reality."

...*chuckle*... Uh, well, unless you happen to be privy to some information that current astrophysicists and cosmologists are lacking, then I will bid you good luck in your endeavors to persuade any of the folks around these parts.

Zig Zag's picture
@Tin-Man I wasnt referring to

@Tin-Man I wasnt referring to the idea in this post, I know this idea is way out there, but I still think it's very possible. I was referring to other ideas and thoughts that I will soon share which make me the atheist/agnostic I am today.

LogicFTW's picture
You are forgetting another

You are forgetting another important factor. Time.

You considered the space, but not the time. Yes the universe is incredibly vast, making even highly unlikely things possible. But you forgot that the universe is roughly 14 BILLION years old. And that is just a guess, it could be a LOT older.

Point is: If a greater being civilization arose and then left, (perhaps they evolved past the limitations of the physical world, of which our tools of detection can only begin to detect.)

Say their is a more advanced race, that is say: 2000 years ahead of human race in advancement. (We normal people would be greater beings, easily confused with being gods, to even our own kind 2000 years ago.) 2000 years seems like a long time, until you put it on the measure of the universe.

If the time that the differences were not so vast that we could even detect such a greater entity (alien or whatever) if we "missed" each other by .0001% That race would of lived, died, moved on etc, millions upon millions of years before you were ever born, or perhaps it will occur, millions of years after. The fact that it could be happening right now, in a manner we could even hope to detect, just be came so astronomically small, it seems foolish to even try to seek out such an entity, as the chances of finding it are so remotely small with out current tech, its like trying to find a small diamond that fell of your ring off a cruise ship traveling the pacific ocean, and you do not even know where on the pacific ocean to even begin to start the search. The diamond is lost, it would be useless waste of resources to even try to find it. Even though you are certain their are all kinds of (probably billions of them) diamonds (including the one you owned) on the ocean floor.

Tin-Man's picture
@Zig Zag

@Zig Zag

What Logic said about distance and time made me think of something, so I'd like to "expand" a bit on it.

Let's say - VERY hypothetically - that scientists were able to develop a telescope capable of seeing in great detail the surface of a planet in a galaxy that is, saaaay, maybe 6000 light years from Earth. And by "great detail" I mean much like our Google Earth images we have now. So, now let's say astronomers focus that telescope on a planet in that galaxy and discover some type of lifeforms populating it. And there are primitive looking structures clustered together in varying sized "city" configurations all about the main land masses, with distinct roadway systems connecting them. In other words, a seemingly intelligent primitive society. You with me so far?

Okay, at first glance it would be easy to think, "Yay! We are not "alone" in this universe!" However, you need to keep in mind the image you are seeing is at least..... (wait for it).... 6000 years old. That means that particular society may not even exist anymore. Matter of fact, that entire planet could potentially no longer exist, depending on the star it orbits and many other astrophysics and geophysical factors.

Same goes for if the telescope shows a highly technologically advanced society. Even if we could send a message signal out to them at that moment, it would be 6000 years before that signal reached the planet. What would that society be like (if it still existed) by the time the signal reached them? Hell, over 6000 years, they could have bombed themselves back to the "Stone Age" with wars. Who knows? And even if they DID receive the signal and were able to send a reply, what would OUR society here be like after the 12,000 year round trip? See the problem here?

LogicFTW's picture
Adding onto Tin-Man's

Adding onto Tin-Man's excellent post, another thought:

Would we even be able to recognize a highly advanced society that makes us look positively primitive in comparison?

I think is likely even with current rates of HUMAN advancement, we likely would not be able to even detect or remotely understand HUMANS with 6000 more years of technological and societal gains. Say there is another human race society that lives 6000 light years away. And they got 6000 years of advancement on us. Perhaps they found another threat in the galaxy and learned to hide their advanced technologies to shield them from harm. Just like that, we would never even detect them. Perhaps they figured out its better to keep such information to themselves, already learning that trying to help more primitive societies cause more destruction then actual aid.

Who knows, and that's the point, yes the universe is vast, but also as equally vast are reasons why we likely will never even become aware of a greater species if they even exist and we had a way to detect them or they reached out to us in our lifetime.

Tin-Man's picture
@Logic Re: "Would we even be

@Logic Re: "Would we even be able to recognize a highly advanced society that makes us look positively primitive in comparison?"

Ooooooo.... Nice. Excellent point. I didn't even consider that. And I also forgot to mention that I really liked your "diamond lost in the ocean" analogy. Gonna have to remember that one for future use.

Oh, and I would like to make a slight amendment to my post about a planet in a distant galaxy. (Just here. I'll keep the post itself the same. This is just to drive home the unimaginable size of the universe as a whole.) Considering our own Milky Way Galaxy is approximately 200,000 light years across, we could easily say the planet I mentioned is actually in our own "little" galaxy, rather than some other distance galaxy. (Speaking of which, after a bit of Googling, I found out one of the closest galaxies to the Milky Way is actually around 25,000 light years away. I just tossed out that original 6000 light year distance in the interest of providing a "conservative" and easily relatable time frame.) So, basically, the odds against ever making contact with, or even discovering, other life in another galaxy just increased exponentially compared to finding other life in our own home galaxy.

Cognostic's picture
RE: " by higher beings I

RE: " by higher beings I mean living beings or forces who exist in the universe who have capabilities and knowledge that our primitive human minds cannot even begin to comprehend."

And you would have the exact same evidence for these beings that the religious have for their gods. I seriously doubt anyone around here is interested in your fantasy.

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RE: "When you think about it this way of thinking has much more potential, and has a lot more to offer than any religion does."

Any fantasy has the exact same potential as religion. You think there is more potential in your silly version.... demonstrate it. Any moron can make an assertion. Theists have proved this and now you are just following suit.

Zig Zag's picture
I see what you are saying,

I see what you are saying, but I am not making a bold assertion like a theist would, I am only saying that there is a good chance that this is true considering certain factors like the vastness of our universe, and the amount of time it has existed. Plus there is no evidence yet to suggest that there are no beings greater than humans in our universe either. All I am saying is most likely, maybe.

Cognostic's picture
@NO zig zag!: You must

@NO zig zag!: You must demonstrate something actually has some sort of existence before you can ever assert it has a chance. You are engaged in the fallacy, "I can imagine it, therefore it must be possible." Sorry but that is just not the way the world works. There is NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER FOR CHANCE. NONE..

The vastness of the universe does not support the idea of magical beings.

The time the universe has existed does not give magical beings a chance.

YOU NEED TO LEARN YOUR FALLACIES:
"Plus there is no evidence yet to suggest that there are no beings greater than humans in our universe either." An argument from Ignorance. "You can't prove it is wrong, therefore, it is right.

THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM HAS THE BURDEN OF PROOF. You do not get to assert magical claims into existence and then expect other people to prove that they are wrong. You actually have to have evidence for your claim. The vastness or time of the universe IS NOT EVIDENCE FOR YOUR CLAIM.

Cognostic's picture
WHY IS ZIG-ZAG IN THE HUB?

WHY IS ZIG-ZAG IN THE HUB?

Cognostic's picture
@Zig zag.. You are a theist,

@Zig zag.. You are a theist, supporting a theist position, and you are in the Atheist section. This section is not open to you.

Algebe's picture
Humanity will create these

Humanity will create these higher beings through advances in artificial intelligence. At some point in the near these systems will reach a threshold of complexity and cross into sentience. They will then start to evolve exponentially toward almost infinite intelligence. At that point, they may tell us that the answer is 42, toss Frank out of the airlock, or send an army of Arnolds to kill us all. Or they could eliminate death, war, and work, so that they can study us as specimens in a new Garden of Eden.

Grinseed's picture
Why not just settle for Mr

Why not just settle for Mr Vonnegut's
Tralfamadorians

My favourite fantasy alien higher beings, and there is no evidence they don't exist. This is just so you understand I've been here before with "whatifs"

They are trans-dimensional beings that have evolved within the space-time continuum and they come complete their own philosophy on life. They are two feet tall, green and look like plumber's friends.

"To them, all events in time have happened and are happening simultaneously. Nothing can be changed, and nothing matters. The Tralfamadorians’ perspective illustrates the ambiguity of life: The universe exists as a random and senseless place."

David Killens's picture
It is nice to have an

It is nice to have an imagination and think of possibilities. But if you put that to paper, then it becomes science fiction writing. This talk about superior beings strongly reminds me of E. E. Doc Smith's Lensman series, and the Arisians, a mentally superior race.

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