Oh my god no, nono, how are we suppose to debunk Lourdes?

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Mikhael's picture
https://en.m.wikipedia.org

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_De_Rudder

This is a famous case involving a broken bone but I guess it has it's skeptical route too

I don't understand. Why can't I be like you guys and just accept that this shit is a mess of half lies and stretched truths.

Algebe's picture
@Mikhael: this shit is a mess

@Mikhael: this shit is a mess of half lies and stretched truths

There's no "half" about it. It's 100%, 24-karat lies. It's an evil profit-making business built on the suffering and fears of the weak.

"All lies and jests, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." (Paul Simon, "The Boxer")

David Killens's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

And did you read the past part?

From the same source https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_De_Rudder

Skeptical investigationEdit

Noted skeptic Joe Nickell who investigated, discovered that some of the testimony in the case was subject to error as it was unrecorded for eighteen years. He also found evidence that the healing had occurred before Rudder's visit to the shrine and it was not instantaneous. Nickell concluded that in the De Rudder case "there is evidence that an injury, healed long before, was passed off as instantaneous—a miracle that wasn’t."

STOP READING THAT SHIT

Cognostic's picture
A famous case of ignorant

A famous case of ignorant religious farmers from 1822 France. Seriously? You might as well argue for the Resurrection of Jesus.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

Do you think it is an coincidence, that the things faith healers (and these magical locations) claim to heal, are the things that are known to be reversible without faith healing?

Do you think it is a coincidence that injuries that are known to not be reversible, and are extremely easy to document (I don't need to be a doctor to diagnose an amputated limb, and I don't need to be a doctor to know it ain't gonna fix itself); are the injuries the faith healers are not capable of healing either?

Mikhael's picture
I can agree to this...but I

I can agree to this...but I don't understand how so many modern doctors can look at these cases and say, it is a miracle, if it was within medical possibility

Nyarlathotep's picture
Mikhael - ...I don't

Mikhael - ...I don't understand how so many modern doctors can look at these cases and say, it is a miracle, if it was within medical possibility

Has it not crossed your mind that they were scammed, just like you were?

Mikhael's picture
It just feels too big and too

It just feels too big and too far reaching...i dunno. I feel like the early ones could be scams and religious fever. The newer ones maybe people who actually believe dealing with some actual anomalies. Just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it's Jesus

David Killens's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

"Just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it's Jesus"

BINGO

You just figured it out.

Algebe's picture
Mikhael:

Mikhael:

Have you heard the phrase "Follow the money"? It originated in the investigation of criminal activities in the Nixon White House. This concept applies just as well to religion. To understand "miracles" at Lourdes, think for a moment about who's profiting from this circus.

Mikhael's picture
True...and I can't help but

True...and I can't help but notice how few there are these days...

Mikhael's picture
I mean, the church of course

I mean, the church of course ...and I k ow it's a very tiny amount of people who were said to be miraculously healed , but it seems like too big a shindig to be all a scam and nobody healed or at least "healed". Even secular reputations I've read still come up saying that something is happening we can't explain

LogicFTW's picture
99% of the world thought the

99% of the world thought the world was flat, for thousands of years the earth was flat. Were they right? Nope. Just because a lot of people are involved, does not make it anymore true. That is the common flaw, argumentum ad populum.

Mikhael's picture
Thank you for your logic here

Thank you for your logic here. I'm trying to calm down

Grinseed's picture
You are forgetting the

You are forgetting the biggest scam of all, the very heart of the Christian faith: someone died and bodily came back to life and now is immortal.

After a show stopper like that anything else, like Lourdes, is just a carnival side show.

You really think someone survived death? In this natural world things like that just do not happen. Ever. They only happen in the imagined supernatural realms of people's fantasies.

Stop reading theist literature which only feeds your basic ignorant fears and start reading legitimate science and history texts if you sincerely want to understand this truly amazing, if mundane, non-supernatural, natural world.
Peace.

Mikhael's picture
I'm too scared to read more

I'm too scared to read more but also too scared to stop reading because my old church taught this is a sign that you know th eyre right and you're in denial.

Idk if I believe in the ressurectipn. I didnt yesyerdsy but today I can't explain Lourdes so who knows. _.

Mikhael's picture
https://www.google.com/amp/s

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.economist.com/science-and-technology/20...

I appreciate this article, it answered some of my questions

Maybe some of the so called miracles at Lourdes are truly beyond our explanation as of yet. But surely at least some of them are frauds, misdiagnosed, misrepprted?

Cognostic's picture
There are no Miracles at

There are no Miracles at Lourdes. There are events which religious people are calling miracles, and nothing more. No one on this planet has ever actually substantiated an actual miracle. No One.

Mikhael's picture
I know ...god I know, I'm

I know ...god I know, I'm sorry, but I'm still just so scared thinking of people being dunked into the water and coming out cured? Because I mean...thays what's being said happened so I don't understand. If people saw someone go on the water and come out with healed wounds...im sorry. I'm only on this because I don't understand what Is happening at Lourdes then

Nyarlathotep's picture
I should also mention:

I should also mention: misdiagnosis is also common. Leading to the situation where person is diagnosed with condition A, receives faith healing for condition A, then is later shown to not have condition A.

That is also why we never see them cure an amputee. It is something we can all successfully diagnose: show me the stump and I'll be convinced you are missing a limb.

It isn't a condition that is likely to be a misdiagnosis, and sure enough, god (or his priests) can't seem to magically heal it! Do you think that is a coincidence?
-------------------------------
So in summary, they can only heal the stuff that is already known to be reversible by mundane means. Add to that their incredibly low success rate and I think the conclusion is clear: the successful faith healing are just mundane results that the church takes credit for. It really isn't even a supernatural claim. When they start healing amputees or raising the dead; then there might be something to explain.

Mikhael's picture
No, it's not. I'm sure that

No, it's not. I'm sure that's a lot of it, and people going off meds that are only doing more harm.

Do you really believe absolutely nothing super natural is going on at Lourdes? I just...i want that certainty but j feel that this many testimonies are frightening.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Mikhael - Do you really

Mikhael - Do you really believe absolutely nothing super natural is going on at Lourdes?

Yes. I'd bet everything I own, vs a penny that is the case; because that is just a free penny!

Mikhael's picture
Can I ask how you are so

Can I ask how you are so confident? All the eye witness accounts, continuing to this day and the fact that she supposedly shouldn't know the and of the immaculate conception ... like legit please tell me

Nyarlathotep's picture
Mikhael - Can I ask how you

Mikhael - Can I ask how you are so confident?

I don't really know what else to say. Perhaps it was because I grew up in a home where magical beliefs were not forced upon me. I'll leave you this 2 minute George Carlin video which I think sums up my views better than me, and it's really funny.

Cognostic's picture
Eye Witness Testimony is

Eye Witness Testimony is bullshit. How many people have witnessed aliens, Bigfoot, Chupacabra, the flat earth, ghosts, bla bla bla...... WITNESSES ARE MAKING THE CLAIM. WHAT'S THE EVIDENCE?

Mikhael's picture
That's...a good point too

That's...a good point too actually. I guess I'm having trouble convincing myself that these weren't earnestly hurt people. Like the second miracle was a one man who rubbed the mud in his eyes and could see again and even his doctor was amazed. I just wonder what kind of story really went on there

And i can't get over how there's only been like 5 in the last 30 years. How many "miracles "would we have had back in the earlier half of this if they had our medical science? But on the other hand how did she know to call the vision the immaculate conception? Was that just a lie added in? To give the recent decision of that name for Mary validity? Or did she over hear it in church? Everyone says she was too dumb and uneducated to but even dumb kids pick up on wierd shit

Algebe's picture
@Nyarlahotep: show me the

@Nyarlahotep: show me the stump and I'll be convinced you are missing a limb.

There is a long history of beggars faking lost limbs, and many actors have portrayed Long John Silver on stage and screen without chopping limbs off.

Rolf Harris convincingly portrayed a man with three legs. (Can you tell which one is the fake?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJleJbn9G6Y

Mikhael's picture
I also wonder how she learned

I also wonder how she learned the name the immaculate conception in her own language. Most sources say she could never have heard it before but isn't it possible she overheard a priest or someone mention it in passing ?

Algebe's picture
Mikhael:

Mikhael:

For the ultimate satire on the religious "healing" marketed at places like Lourdes, watch the rock opera "Tommy" by The Who, especially the attached video of "Eyesight to the Blind".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzLEGbFSOwQ

Mikhael's picture
I'm just still stuck on the

I'm just still stuck on the process, I'm sorry. They get examined before they go in the water, they have wounds, and they're healing when they're examined out of the water, and these are fairly modern cases. It's written about and documented. How....

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