So the bible is a real book, however is it ultimate truth?

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Silly Bill E.'s picture
I understand that everyone

I understand that everyone has their own paths and experiences. I don't expect anyone to know mine and I don't assume I know anyone better than I ever knew a textbook. (Never really got to know a textbook)

I am aware I have a screw loose, but it ain't missing, and it's a communication screw.

I have a very busy brain, sometimes I miss an entire paragraph worth of thought when it comes time to communicate it. I edit CONSTANTLY.

I'm a very inviting person for new ideas or stances or what have you. I don't judge people. I didn't say I was an accepting person, it's not my job to accept you, but I can be inviting if I happen to be lucky enough to stumble into your presence.

A few posters said what I was trying to communicate better than I would have.

Sex also hasn't been a priority for a while for me, my bloods kinda been coagulated with that thrombosis I mentioned. So I'm not really thinking about how I offend sexualities or gender studies or identification or insert language I'm missing here, and I'm not ignoring anyone on purpose to offend them, it's just not on my mind.

I'd rather pull on a sock.

I came here BECAUSE there's people who don't believe in a God who shames EVERYONE. I think that's a beautiful opportunity to have.

David Killens's picture
@ Silly Bill E.

@ Silly Bill E.

"I came here BECAUSE there's people who don't believe in a God who shames EVERYONE. I think that's a beautiful opportunity to have."

I came here to have a healthy (and hopefully respectful) debate on religion with other human beings.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Silly Bill E. - In fact, I'm

Silly Bill E. - In fact, I'm more insulted that people keep assuming my sexual orientation. I've made under twenty posts here, I don't know how you type yet, you don't know how I type yet.

Well that should not be happening; let me be the first to apologize for that happening to you here.

However; I've been reading this thread over and over again, and I'm having trouble finding what you have described. Could you help point me to it?

Silly Bill E.'s picture
I'm going to point out

I'm going to point out something. I'm defenseless against the way you guys pick apart small parts of a large conversation in order to continue an imaginary difference.

I don't know how to quote and bold, nor do I know how to read your username five times and scroll down to remember it to say "Hi, inset name of I'm sure said lovely person". I have not shown this ability yet, no matter how quickly possessing this ability would have ended said imaginary slight or difference.

We have all agreed that we are arguing about nothing, and have beaten a dead horse on any 3rd person coming in to read about us arguing about nothing.

I am not waving an Obi Wan Kenobi hand at you to try to mesmerize you.

I am trying not to extend the arguement as even the gentleman who was initially questioning my sentence, has moved on to reveal their engaging side and I appreciated it.

We can all have fun, I never intentionally tried to put anyone in a corner or offend anybody.

But after typing all of this, looking back, my family watched Dirty Dancing earlier today. So I'm blaming Baby's father.

My username is Silly Bill E. You have to assume I like to be silly, just as I assumed cranky might just be cranky. cranky made me feel like crap after showing empathy on another page, but you know what I mean, I hope.

Edit: Good night, gotta insure a vehicle tomorrow. Nice talking to you all today.

Whitefire13's picture
I’m “sneaking this” in this

I’m “sneaking this” in this thread for obvious reasons...

“...just as there was a diaspora of diverse Africans, kidnapped and enslaved for centuries, there was a diverse diaspora of Anglo-American peoples doing the kidnapping, colonizing and enslaving. These were the people who would make up modern nations like the U.S. and Canada, but they were also a part of the British Empire.”

This is where, I, as a Canadian have been told “shut up whitey” (reverse racism). NOW I am not saying what is written above is “false” HOWEVER it is highly misleading and inflammatory- it allows a continued “victim” and “abuser” state of mind and or oppressed/oppressor - both of which is seen in black and white with no grey.

“ The vast majority of those who were enslaved and transported in the transatlantic slave trade were people from Central and West Africa, who had been sold by other West Africans, or by half European 'merchant princes' [1] to Western European slave traders (with a small number being captured directly by the slave traders in coastal raids), who brought them to the Americas... [and cont with Portugal (exception)...”

The African nation has/had infighting that runs deep between tribes and they also took full advantage of the opportunity to sell their enemies when the opportunity arose. YES British definitely gave them the opportunity! NO doubt - they wanted the slaves (good for business) BUT they weren’t over there treading through the bush en’masse with guns and cages. The “captured” were brought to market and sold. The other tribes were viewing them as goods to be sold.

It’s just fucking sick - human society’s history. The suffering and degradation. We all need to acknowledge “parts played” and move on with a more equitable, fair system motivated by well being.
I understand the difficulty in these discussions, and I didn’t have the advantage of human/social higher educational classes - so my intention is to discuss ... not blame or avoid responsibility or admit fault or adjust (societal wise)

And maybe, I’m giving this subject too much thought lately ... I don’t know - it’s fuckin’tough

I just KNOW when I see what I see on the news and authoritarianism but also looting (mind you, barely) I want my boys in a better, more acceptive and empathetic world ... I don’t want the pendulum to swing so far the other way that “they are the ones to suffer” for the sins of fucktards living under a different moral system hundreds of years ago!

Edited to add: think “Prohibition of alcohol” to fix the men

Silly Bill E.'s picture
We need a foundation that

We need a foundation that didn't begin with sacrifices, crucifixion, witches, or anything supernatural.

The initial thought of, "where do we come from", wasn't a supernatural instance.

Our foundation should be grounded to work our way up, not starting from "the heavens". We don't lay concrete in the sky, why do we bullshit as so?

Well, not us I guess.

Whitefire13's picture
There is nothing like filling

There is nothing like filling the vehicle with empty bottles (6 mths worth) and listening to your 15 yr old give social and political commentary in the voice of “Mickey Mouse”

They’re going to be fine - just great! Really!!! Really GREAT!

No more “worries” ... ;)

algebe's picture


Two important things to remember about slavery:

First, it's never been an exclusively a white-on-black thing. The Romans were equal opportunity slavers. They took millions of slaves out of Gaul (aka France), for example, as well as from Africa. The Vikings were also major slavers. And millions of people from coastal communities all around Europe were kidnapped by Barbary slavers from North Africa. They weren't shut down until the 19th century.

Second, slavery is still here. According to the ILO, around 40 million people are enslaved right now. There are women trafficked in the sex trade. There are migrant workers building opulent cities in the Middle East while travel debt, hovel rents, and broker fees eat up their wages. There are people in "reeducation" camps in places like North Korea and China.

I've often thought that it isn't enough to teach children that slavery is bad. They need to understand why it's bad. They need to be taught to figure out for themselves why slavery is morally and economically disastrous for slaves and slavers. And they need to know that they certainly won't find the answers in the Bible.

boomer47's picture


Just so.

I've always found it interesting that Judaeo -Christian morality only began condemning slavery about 200 years ago. That the Old Testament gives instructions on how to treat slaves, but does not condemn the practice. From the New Testament, Jesus is silent on the matter of slaves (and of homosexuality).

The slave Trade was banned in the British Empire in 1803.Slavery was banned in MOST of the British empire under the Slave abolition Act of 1833. William Wilberforce gets a lot of credit. A cynical person might say that slavery was abolished in the British Empire when it was no economically viable. This view is supported by the fact that slavery was still permitted in parts of the Empire after 1833. Specifically in the East India Company and Ceylon.

I take the point that slavery in various forms still exists,even in developed countries. There is a controversial view that great wealth cannot exist without great poverty. I don't have the knowledge to debate that argument. I will only make the observation that it seems to me that great poverty always exists wherever there is great wealth.

boomer47's picture

edit dual post.tend to be doing that a lot. Not intentional. I must be making some simple mistake.

algebe's picture
@cranky47: edit dual post.

@cranky47: edit dual post.

It's a quirk of this website. You do the little sum and hit "SAVE" and your message is posted. Then you hit the back key to get back to the list, but instead it takes you back to your message before you posted it. So you post it again. I've done it lots of times.

Whitefire13's picture
1000 agrees... thanks

1000 agrees... thanks

Cognostic's picture
@Slavery: What's

@Slavery: What's interesting is that "slavery" is alive and well and doing just fine in the United States of America. The myth that Lincoln abolished slavery is just another jingoistic falsehood we tell children to make our country look great. It's a lie! The Myth is something like "America abolished slavery 150 years ago with ratification of the 13th Amendment." HAVE YOU READ THE 13TH AMENDMENT?

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

The little caveat, "Except as punishment for a crime." is completely omitted from our jingoistic interpretation of history and people actually believe there are no more slaves in America.

The 13th Amendment never abolished slavery, it moved it from the plantation to the prison; and most of the incarcerated in America are black and they are legally considered slaves according to our Constitution.


boomer47's picture
Australia also had its slaves

Australia also had its slaves.

These were pacific island people. Officially called "indentured labour" .In fact many were deceived or kidnapped. That practice was called 'blackbirding' . Once here,they were put to work mainly in the sugar industry in the cane fields. Most were returned home once they could no longer work. The practice began in the nineteenth century and continued into the 1930's.

Today,here in aunty Adelaide and all over Australia, we have the national disgrace of outworkers in the rag trade. Typically asian women in their back shed with their own industrial sewing machine. It's all piece work, with many earning only a couple of dollars an hour.


"Blackbirding involves the coercion of people through deception or kidnapping to work as unpaid or poorly paid labourers in countries distant to their native land. The term has been most commonly applied to the large-scale taking of people indigenous to the numerous islands in the Pacific Ocean during the 19th and 20th centuries. These blackbirded people were called Kanakas or South Sea Islanders. They were taken from places such as the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Niue, Easter Island, Gilbert Islands, Tuvalu and the islands of the Bismarck Archipelago amongst others.

The owners, captains and crew of the ships involved in the acquisition of these labourers were termed blackbirders. The demand for this kind of cheap labour principally came from European colonists in New South Wales, Peru, Queensland, Samoa, New Caledonia, Fiji, Tahiti, Hawaii, Mexico and Guatemala. Labouring on sugarcane, cotton and coffee plantations in these lands was the main usage of blackbirded labour, but they were also exploited in other industries. Blackbirding ships began operations in the Pacific from the 1840s which continued into the 1930s. Blackbirders from the Americas sought workers for their haciendas and to mine the guano deposits on the Chincha Islands,[2] while the blackbirding trade organised by colonists in places like Queensland, Fiji and New Caledonia used the labourers at plantations, particularly those producing sugar-cane.[3][4]"

ADDENDUM: the older I get the less time I spend being outraged at the world for not being as I would like it to be. I'd
call this attitude a mixture of pragmatism and nihilistic indifference

Nyarlathotep's picture
The ironic thing is in the

The ironic thing is in the past I think* it was a crime to kill a slave.

*And by the past I mean in Mark Twain novels (because anything I "know" about that period of time, probably came from Mark Twain).

boomer47's picture


"The ironic thing is in the past I think* it was a crime to kill a slave."

Would that have been under some kind of 'cruelty to animals' law? Slaves were valuable property, especially in the last few decades before the Civil War when they could no longer import them in any numbers.

I found this out on 'The West Wing, so it must be right: In the antebellum South's census, a slave was counted as 3/5 of a person.

Be fascinated to see how many white men were convicted of killing a black man in the southern states before say 1980. The last recorded instance of whites lynching a black person in the US was in 1981.

Fear and hatred cannot be simply remove by passing laws. As an outsider, it seems to me that race still permeates every significant issue in the US


"The lynching of Michael Donald in Mobile, Alabama on March 21, 1981, was one of the last reported lynchings in the United States.[1][2] Several Ku Klux Klan (KKK) members beat and killed Michael Donald, a 19-year-old African-American, and hung his body from a tree. One perpetrator, Henry Hays, was executed by electric chair in 1997, while another, James Knowles, was sentenced to life in prison after pleading guilty and testifying against Hays. A third man was convicted as an accomplice, and a fourth was indicted but died before his trial could be completed."

Link to "Strange Fruit" by Billie Holiday (1959)

Whitefire13's picture
***ahem**** clears throat;

***ahem**** clears throat; (oh god, my 15 yr old would kill me for what I’m about to do) Mickey Mouse voice- - - Setting: driving to town to drop off bottles for recycling...

This great nation of ours is torn, torn, I tell you! And it pains me. There is only one great enemy that we are fighting! A lack of enemy! We have to come together, come together, I tell you, as we did with the Vietnam war, where blacks and whites, not midgets mind you... worked together as brothers for a common goal. That goal was met in the great tradition of our great country and we slaughtered the Vietnamese to spread freedom, life and liberty! I tell you, look around...look around and no longer see race, behold each other as brothers in arms, as we move forward, a new enemy in sight to unite.... I tell you, the Paki is your enemy! (Reference to Pakistan and using terrorism as base motive)

Shit, this isn’t quite close enough. He included Covid (and he’d be, BUT that’s another issue I tell you) and after the midget comment (that’s another issue, I tell you) ... I got a full hour total (throughout the day) of Mickey commentary ...I think the Covid fit in after the Vietnam war (double death totals reference) ...anyway... oh yah, and he explained JFK assassin to me in Mickeys voice

I interpreted him and said, there’s a video on YouTube that claims Jackie was the shooter...

His Mickey voice... “hmmm, who would think giving a woman a gun who’s husband is a notorious cheater, might end in his death?” I say giving women guns is wrong, they are weak and need them - men on the other hand can just kill women with bare hands, no - take away a woman’s power! Ban guns!!!

Grinseed's picture
You gotta stop recycling.

You gotta stop recycling. Your boy is getting to you.

LogicFTW's picture
@Whitefire13 / thread

@Whitefire13 / thread
Don't forget the internment (slavery or worse mass concentration camps) of over 100,000 japanese americans that occured around ww2. That happened with in the life time of quite a few regulars here.

Who built the railroads in the USA west around the turn to the 20th century? Yep more slavery re-named.

USA has improved some since then, (well until recently anyhow,) but the legacy of the recent slavery and segregation still continues. The single greatest factor of a person's economic status is their parents/grandparents economic status. Creating a cycle of poverty that is very difficult to break out of, despite the american "dream" that anyone that works hard enough can "make it" to middle class or higher.

Who is mowing lawns and doing other hard outdoor labor in the summer during 90 to 100 degree days for maybe a few bucks over minimum wage? It is certainly not the mostly white folks sitting in their air conditioned corporate offices sipping coffee making at least 10x more then that the guy outside trying to fend off heat exhaustion.

Same old story, with a few descriptive details changed.

Whitefire13's picture
@Logic ... never bought into

@Logic ... never bought into the whole “work hard” LOL

I saw who worked hard and who was poor and who didn’t “work” hard and who was rich...

Firstly, overall I’m of the opinion if you find something you love to do and people give you money to do that thing, well, you won’t really work a day in your life.

Then, if you get what you value, overall you’re mostly likely “rich”... some people who have lots of money don’t have much else of value, so they could be poor - likewise some folks work for what little money they get but value the clean water (out of taps) and heat in the winter and electricity - food on the table and family life...

Just big broad strokes above - know plenty of wealthy folks who literally “have it all” and “hard working min wage” folks on their own who can hardly afford to feed themselves...

Yes, Logic, I agree that we have a shameful history of exploitation with human societies’ history. And it’s ongoing, disgusting and IMO hard to argue how it’s for the “well being” of another when exploitation is involved.

Canada most recent news regarding Mexican migrant farmer workers:

You know how I feel sometimes???? We need a ditch dug. And there’s a backhoe. And there’s a table with a shitload of food. And there’s 100 workers. We give the workers a fucking spoon to go dig a ditch so they can get some food off the table ( just to be fair) while the guy who owns the backhoe, sits in it with his feet up enjoying a fuckin’ cold beer. The workers argue “how much food they get based on their pile of dirt” - oh, and the backhoe can be used to run you over if you complain or want to step out of the ditch.

Jesus fuckin’Christ

Be very very careful stepping out of the ditch...

Know societies’ rules...

OK ... real life example (me and finances). I’ve been open before, I’ll do it again...

In Canada, “under” a certain limit means you don’t pay tax (too poor). Ok, I find limit with 3 dependants (one can count as an adult also) and whola- I now know how much money I can make without paying taxes. Good
Now, the govt also gives a certain child benefit monthly, so I use this for the benefit of the children (save for them and their education and unforeseen stuff). Good
I can’t physically work outside the home anymore, but I’m not “disabled” so ethically, I don’t feel this money is for “me”, ‘cause I can support myself...hmmm, I can send my money “out to work” and I make sure it’s in real places. Gives a little income stream, when “good” I save and stay in budget, when stream is dry, use this saved water. Good
I’m not the only parent responsible for the kids. The other parent has to provide for 1/2 their groceries (3 teenage boys eat min $500/wk grocery NOT fast food) and help with some clothing costs. Got that covered. Good

My valuable time is spent cooking, baking, cleaning, gardening, chickens, sewing, canning, teaching, puzzle solving, clearing deadwood, pool maintenance- hanging with my guys... etc etc etc ALL thing I enjoy that happen to save me money...

So I’m a single mom raising 3 boys living on the poverty line...happy and rich like a pig in shit...

Now my mom’s version of “poverty” was different... ;)

LogicFTW's picture
Thank you for writing that

Thank you for writing that post. Especially the part sharing your own personal story.

Well said, I think I get what you mean about happy and rich like a pig in shit...

I still remember as a teenage boy, my brother and I would eat everything in sight. A pack of 8 hot dogs meant as the main portion of a meal for the whole family? An afternoon snack for us.

Whitefire13's picture

The Onion
Should we tell Africa about our wealth

Exploitation: the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work and/or the action of making use of and benefiting from resources.

Slavery: the practice or system of owning slaves; and/or condition in which individuals are owned by others, who control where they live and at what they work.

Both are despicable and immoral.

And then there is “taking advantage”, “conning” and other negative practices that are not intended for the “well being” of others.

Whitefire13's picture
Thanks - smiling?!?!goddamn

Thanks - smiling?!?!goddamn mask bird
dead from breathing it’s own CO2 and is now food ...

Fuckin’ figured it was the recycling scam that’s warped his brain!

boomer47's picture


"This great nation of ours is torn, torn, I tell you! And it pains me. There is only one great enemy that we are fighting! A lack of enemy! "

No prob. Come down to Oz. We always have somebody to hate. I think our relative isolation, together with the White Australia policy (ended 1975) made us unusually xenophobic.

When I was gossoon it was the Protestants, Greeks, Italians and Poms(Brits) . In the 1980's it was the Vietnamese refugees who came to Australia. Today it's the Muslims.


"Don't forget the internment (slavery or worse mass concentration camps) of over 100,000 japanese americans that occurred around ww2. "

A graphic example of American racism at the time.Many of the Japanese Americans interred were American citizens,and /or had been born in the US. As far as I know, German and Italian Americans were not interred.

Glad to see you calla spade a spade. They WERE put into concentration camps. Australia has had it's very own concentration camps in recent years. For those who had the audacity to turn up in boats seeking asylum. It's not a crime to just arrive and ask for admission. It's only a crime if they sneak in and are detected.

Initially ,such people were bunged into camps in Oz. One was at Woomera, in the dessert. Too open to scrutiny. In recent years, refugees have been interred off shore on Nauru Island. No press or independent scrutiny is allowed. At one point there were unaccompanied minor children there. There have been suicides and the condemnation of Amnesty International. Seems Australia is in breach of international conventions we've signed. Of course, the Australian government simply ignores them .

It is the observation that countries will ignore international law and their own constitution whenever it suits which has led me to dispute the notion of innate/self evident human rights. Imo, if it can be taken away arbitrarily at any time, it's a privilege, not a right.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Re Slavery and dehumanising

Re Slavery and dehumanising

As part of my job a few years ago I was called (with our resident legal eagle) to mediate in a workplace dispute. We had to interview this lady of a certain age, the respondent (i.e the person to whom the complaint(s) referred).

The complaints boiled down to this person's inability to control her anger, the instances alleged could have resulted in termination. This was an aboriginal lady, originally from Queensland. She was one of a very few indigenous Australians employed in this workplace. She had been working in the same position for some twenty years watching younger people get graded at higher pay and conditions.

We interviewed her. My boss had established that she was resentful and once again being passed over for promotion/regrading despite being more experienced and capable at her job. I asked her why she thought that she was alway so angry that it erupted at minor requests and for what I would call minor reasons.

She asked me where I was born, I told her. "how do you know?" she asked. I replied," Well my parents told me and I have birth certificate"
she said" That must be nice for you. I have a certificate as well" and then she handed me a piece of paper. It was her "birth certificate" dated 1970. It was headed Government of Queensland....and as I read I realised that this woman, like all her race was not registered as a human or an Australian citizen but under the Native Flora And Fauna Act. As. An. Animal.

Read that again...AS.AN.ANIMAL.

Neither I or my lawyer chose to continue the meeting at that point.

Fuck you racists. Just fuck you.


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