There is no god vs. I don't believe in a god

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Mikhael's picture
There is no god vs. I don't believe in a god

Hey guys it's ya boy again how's life?

So what do you guys think about that line between agnostic and atheist when it comes to the difference between "I assert that there is no god" and "I can not prove there is no god but I do not believe in one". Growing up i alwayd assuned atheosm was always "there is no god" and agnostic was "lolidk bruh", but ive learned recently that there's sometimes more nuance to that, and two people of the same beliefs might call themselves different things. What's your thoughts? Do you fall into a particular camp here ?

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Cognostic's picture
@Mikhael: "So what do you

@Mikhael: "So what do you guys think about that line between agnostic and atheist when it comes to the difference between "I assert that there is no god" and "I can not prove there is no god but I do not believe in one".

(EDITED OUT MIKHAEL WAS NOT WHO I THOUGHT HE WAS SO I NEED TO BE NICE).

There is an article available on the site's opening page that explains the difference.

Agnostic: A = without Gnosis = Knowledge. (Agnosticism is about knowledge)
Atheist: A= without Theism = Belief in God. (Atheism is about belief.)

These are separate categories; however they are not mutually exclusive.

An agnostic Christian is a Christian that is convinced to believe by something like Pascal's Wager. He has no idea at all as to whether a god exists or not but the shit has been scared out of him by threats of hell so he opts to believe. This is an Agnostic Christian. "I don't know if there is a god or not but I am protecting my ass from hell and trying to get to heaven."

An agnostic Atheist is a person who has seen no evidence for the existence of god and simply admits that the idea of a god can not be proved or disproved. The agnostic atheist does not believe in God or gods based on a complete lack of evidence for such a being. Nothing about God has ever been known and probably can't be known.

What you have described in the OP is the difference between Anti-theism (Hard Atheists) and Agnostic Atheism. Both of these groups 'DO NOT BELIEVE IN GODS OR GOD SO BOTH ARE ATHEIST." The requirement to be an atheist is to not believe in God or gods. That's it. Many Buddhist sects are considered Atheist as they do not believe in a god. They are Atheistic even though they believe in eternal souls or spirits and Nirvana.

The Anti-theist position is "I assert that there is no god." Many long term atheists who are very familiar with apologetics will make this assertion concerning specific descriptions of gods. Obviously if a god is contradictory or beyond time and space it can be said, for all intent and purposes, not to exist. Other gods just don't have evidence supporting their existence. So there is a difference between the Hard atheist stance and the General Atheist position. The general atheist potion, the set of all atheists is ""I can not prove there is no god but I do not believe in one". I would assert that even the Anti-theists take this position until the specific god being discussed is defined.

I would submit to you the idea that everyone is Agnostic. You are as Agnostic as any atheist on the site for there is nothing you can say about your god that can be substantiated with facts and evidence. In short, you can't know a damn thing about the god you worship with any kind of confidence at all. In this regard, everyone is agnostic regardless of what they believe.

Agnosticism is about what you actually know.

Atheism is about what you believe.

They are not the same thing and they are not mutually exclusive.

STRAIGHT FROM THE HOME PAGE OF AR
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/blog/arminnavabi/atheism-vs-agnosticism-...

Mikhael's picture
...i am now very curious what

...i am now very curious what the hell happened before I got here because it looks funny as hell xD

This is interesting thank you. I've never seen the term agnostic broken down and defined like that but it actually makes a lot of sense. Also never seen it applied like a modified to other beliefs. Looks like I spent a long ass time as an agnostic Catholic, gonna mull that one over.

I like how you put it that everyone is technically agnostic because we do not have true knowledge of a god. It puts in perspective how one can convince themselves of evidence when what they really mean is faith and daydreams

Cognostic's picture
@Mikhael: Sometimes I have

@Mikhael: Sometimes I have to edit myself. It's not the first time. It won't be the last. I am never intentionally insulting to a legitimate inquiry. Happy to help out.

Tin-Man's picture
Hey there, Mikhael. Good to

Hey there, Mikhael. Good to see you again... *grin*... Pay attention to Cog. He may seem a little rough around the edges, but he knows his shit. He even spanked my ass during the very first thread I made here because I made the mistake of using the term, "I converted to atheism." (Shows how ignorant I was at the time. LOL)

Like you, there were many things I had to learn about atheism when I finally started breaking free from my religious shell a couple of years ago. The biggest problem for me was overcoming the negative stigmas attached to atheism, as I was always taught it is "evil" and "demonic". Obviously, the more I learned about it, though, the easier it became to shed that nonsense belief. But I digress...

In regards to your OP, my advice is "Don't over-think it." In other words, don't make it more complicated than it is. If you no longer believe in any god(s), then you are an atheist. Period. That's it. Nothing more. I, too, was once all confused about the whole "agnostic" vs. "gnostic" aspects of it all, and I admit it took me a little while to get a clear understanding of it. Come to find out, once it finally "clicked" in my brain, it turned out to be quite simple. And about the only thing that kept me from seeing it clearly from the very beginning was a lifetime of religious indoctrination that kept the waters muddy. I basically had to filter out all the crap that obscured my vision. And, as you may be aware, sometimes that can take awhile depending on how deep your water is and on how concentrated the crap in it is... *chuckle*... Meanwhile, while your pumps and filters are working overtime, here is a little something I hope will help in regards to agnostic vs. gnostic...

I will try to keep this as basic as possible. Interestingly enough, it is very rare that we can claim we KNOW something as a 100% certainty. Sounds crazy, I admit, but it is true. And this is with everyday common realities we take for granted. But in the realm of gods/demons/heaven/hell/etc., this concept is ESPECIALLY applicable. Because, how can ANYBODY ever claim they "know for certain" anything about god(s), spirits, afterlife, yadda-yadda-yadda, when there is no way to reliably test or demonstrate anything about these concepts to determine if they are true or not? See what I mean?

Personally, I don't care much at all for the terms gnostic/agnostic. They really don't mean that much to me, as the things we know are constantly subject to being updated/changed. And I use the term "atheist" for myself as a convenience because (as the definition states) I do not believe in any god(s). Look at it this way... If somebody were to ask me about my "religious beliefs", I would simply answer, "I don't believe in any gods." Now, the typical response to my answer is usually, "Well, how do you KNOW god does not exist?" Notice, I never said anything about what I KNOW. I merely told the person what I BELIEVE. Therefore, my usual reply would be a shrug of my shoulders and, "I have no idea if a god or gods exist or not. For all I know, there very well could be some sort of god entity out there somewhere. But until such a thing is shown to me, I simply don't believe in it." See the difference? And that is pretty much it. In a nutshell. Nothing complicated.

I've rambled enough. Gonna go ahead and cut this off now. Hope it helps you some.

Cognostic's picture
@Mikhael: I am not doubting

@Mikhael: I am not doubting that Tin Man was perfectly clear or that you have not yet understood what has been said. I'm simply killing time after teaching all day, reading posts, and sipping on some coffee. As I read Tin Man's post the following popped into my mind. It says the exact same thing in what I think is a very clear way.

Imagine the stars in the sky at night. If I walked up to you and said, "The number of stars in the sky are even." would you believe me? (*This is the claim that the Christians are making about God. They are asserting something about which they can know nothing. They have no more ability to count the stars than you or I. They are just making assertions.)

So of course you would say, "I don't believe you. I don't believe there are an even number of stars." (*This is the Atheist position. We simply do not believe Christian claims.)

"OH!" says the Christian, "So you think the number of stars is odd!" (*This is a Christian attempt at shifting the burden of proof. I never said the number was odd. All I said was that I did not believe the claim that the number was even. The Christian is attempting to trap me in a non-falsifiable claim "God does not exist" is the same as "The number of stars is odd." I made no assertion what so ever. I only said I did not believe the claim that the stars were even.) The Atheist is only stating that they do not believe theist claims. The atheists are asking "How do you know that? What reason do you have to believe that? Can you prove what you say?)

Now. What if the Atheists tells the Christian "YOU ARE WRONG! THE NUMBER OF STARS IS IN FACT ODD!" (*This is an anti-theist or hard atheist position. This person is willing to argue for the non-existence of god. He is willing to argue that the number of stars is odd.) Before you ever go there, you should probably be well versed in apologetics and the arguments for and against the existence of god; however, the fact of the matter is that as an atheist, YOU NEVER HAVE TO GO THERE. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The Christian has asserted "There is a God." or "The number of stars are even." The only stance required by an atheist is to say, "I don't believe that. How did you figure it out?"

Atheists do not believe the number of stars are even. They do not believe in God or gods. There is no reason to assert belief without facts or evidence that is convincing.

LogicFTW's picture
@Mikhael OP:

@Mikhael OP:

First, I echo what Cognostic said. Especially about definitions and how the two terms are NOT mutually exclusive.

Do you fall into a particular camp here?

I am atheist, agnostic, and also a "strong" atheist, as in I take the perhaps "dangerous" path of stating (claiming) there is no god, and trot out, what to me is irrefutable evidence:

No humans, no "God."

To me, the strongest possible evidence there is. It just so obvious most folks (usually religious folks,) seemingly miss it or dismiss it without properly considering it. I am well aware I am in minority here for making that claim :)

Cognostic's picture
@I am nearly in line with

@I am nearly in line with logic: I do argue against the existence of god with one caveat. "Belief is allocated to the degree of evidence provided." Christians have the habit of all or nothing thinking. You believe or you do not believe. My assertion is that nothing can be known with 100% confidence. So I can eliminate 100% and 0% from my sliding scale of belief. At this point I argue that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. This is a legitimate method of scientific inquiry. Were it not, we would all be doing the same experiments over and over and over while expecting different results. Once we find NO RESULTS we can stop doing that experiment and focus on another. Well, we have been looking for these God things for 10,000 years with no results. We have failed gods, failed apologietics, failed prayers, failed prophecies, and failed results of all kinds. This is all evidence of absence. So I assert with 99.9% accuracy that there is no God or gods. I have not even seen a single shred of supporting evidence for the existence of a god that can stand against critical inquiry. I am pretty damn confident there is no god. I can say, "Based on my own personal experience I am 100% sure there is no god." (Now we are arguing my experience and not God's existence. To my knowledge there is no God. I actually believe there is no god based on my knowledge and experience.) This is different than assenting there is no god. The differences are perhaps subtle but they have very different outcomes.

Mikhael's picture
Thanks for yalls comments. I

Thanks for yalls comments. I'm not really too concerned about labeling myself as I am just wanting to see how different people have come to the same place through different means. Language is also a particular interest of mine, how the slightest different wording can completely change meanings with things like this. Kinda like a bible translation :p

Cog, I especially appreciate your star analogy because ots quite easy to understand and I might need to stash that one away.

Cognostic's picture
@Mikhael: Star Analogy....

@Mikhael: Star Analogy.... not really mine but I have heard it done with gumballs in a jar, grains of sand on a beach, grains of rice in a bag and more. I like using stars, it seems more cosmic and peaceful.

David Killens's picture
It all boils down to the fact

It all boils down to the fact that not accepting an assertion is not denial of that assertion.

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