I'm a strict vegetarian and almost vegan.
Recently, I was censored on a https://www.veganforum.org/ for suggesting that meat has B12, Iron, and protein.
My position was to help a woman simultaneously get along with her pro-meat husband and also help her to feed vegan foods to their daughter.
The woman's stated claim was the the husband thought that children and babies need to eat meat. However, she said she wanted to raise her daughter vegan. (Edited for clarity)
My position was to look at that claim and goals and sort it all out. Do babies and children need meat? Let's look at the facts!
First, I want to look at the husband's claim. Because it's his claim, his daughter, and he claims an interest in her health. So it's important to listen to him if you want to be fair.
It seems to be that babies don't need meat if breast fed. Breast milk can supply ample protein, B12, and bound iron (apparent this form is better).
But the removed content was removed for advocating meat. The problem was that I was too objective in looking at the husband's health claims. Instead of looking at the facts, they want strict adherence to moral dogma.
That's right — I was helping to advocate for veganism and I got censored for the reason that I might be encouraging or promoting meat consumption.
I usually respect people who make the choice to not support animal slavery, rape, torture, and murder, but I do not respect the people who run these forums. They don't care about such reasons. They only care about upholding Veganism, their religion.
They banned me, a strict vegetarian, almost vegan, from their forum because it's a Vegan forum. Apparently being vegan is not the same as being a Vegan.
https://www.veganforum.org/threads/transitioning-with-an-unsupportive-hu...
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@ Garrett Smith
There are societies which are vegan .
The strictest which come to mind is the Jains in India. Strict vegans. No animal products and do not even eat root vegetables.
Jains' diet is based on an extreme interpretation of the concept of ahimsa . (simply put 'non harm' to any living thing) " Jains even strain their tea before drinking, lest they ingest an insect. They are able to get the iron and other vitamins and minerals they need from grains, pulses and legumes, plus fruit.
Human beings are omnivores . Usually we will eat meat if we can. My observation is that societies in which many are vegetarian or vegan are also coincidentally very poor, and people cannot afford to eat meat---
I eat very little meat, usually not more than once a day. Also the recommended amount for diabetics; about 125 gm (4 ozs) uncooked weight. Mostly chicken, red meat is too expensive and too fatty compared with the chicken fillets I eat. .
BUT, imo, the decision to stop eating meat may eventually be made for us. Protein from cattle, sheep and pigs especially is expensive and inefficient to produce. Human population pressure may eventually stop or at least reduce land being used for meat production .
In my opinion, the consumption of insect protein will be virtually universal by the end of this century.
@ Garret Smith
Well, the post had a slightly deceptive title... It seems less like you are wondering whether veganism is a cult (if so, congratulations on joining ;) and more a post about about either a) overkill banning in forums or b) personal complaint about being banned in another forum.
But to answer your question: no, I don't think veganism is a cult. Most vegans I know are pretty passionate though. They are used to being very criticised and therefore used to pushing back when they get in debates about it. However most are just people deciding on a specific diet like many others (like those opposing gluten or carbs, or eating rawfood).
I don't think you can compare a group to a cult just because someone was banned on a forum. Though I agree that if you were banned just based on the thread you linked it was a bit of an overkill. (They didn't say you were promoting meat though, they claimed you were inaccurate in your claims about nutrition and soy.)
Background: I am vegetarian with vegan leanings.
You don't think I can compare a group to a cult just because someone was banned on a forum. …
But the removed content was removed for violating "Rule #1 - promoting meat".
Was the content promoting meat? No. The content, which cannot be viewed because it was deleted, was aiming to help the woman respectfully get along well with her husband and look into raising her daughter vegan.
The problem they had with that the post — my post — was that I was objective in looking at the husband's health claims. The husband's health claim was that children and babies need to eat meat. Do they? Well, on a vegan forum, Thou Shalt Not Consider such Blasphemy. How dare I take such question seriously? The husband must be condemned!
I committed the sin of Objectivity. Instead of looking at the facts, they demand strict adherence to Vegan code.
My post doesn't have a deceptive title. If anything is deceptive here, it's your mischaracterization of why I analyzed the behavior as cult-like. My analysis is clear as day in my initial post here.
That's why pigeonholing diet, and other things, by specifically defining them, is silly. So cult? Ummm, I don't think so. But, cultish? Maybe. If objective evidence is found that human diet requires red meat, it kinda sinks the boat for many peoples reasons for becoming vegetarians, and for vegetarianism in general. Just my take.
@doG
"If objective evidence is found that human diet requires meat, …"
For that cult, anyone who even considers such possibility is openly promoting meat and that's anti Vegan.
It sounds like you're getting at the situation where it might have been concluded, rightly or wrongly, that humans need [red] meat and, in that case, if vegans are ethically opposed to meat, it poses a dilemma for them. The possibility of this dilemma means they can't even consider the possibility. Did I get you right? It's interesting, anyway.
But if objective consideration is banned, then if someone's husband says "babies need meat", nobody can look at that Blasphemous claim. If it is argued, rightly or wrongly, that humans might need meat, then it should be open for all to see. And if I'm wrong, then it should be open for all to correct.
The problem I have is not with the conclusion they've come to, nor about whether or not humans need meat, nor whether or not they disagree with me. They don't, in fact, disagree with any claim of mine because I didn't really make much of a claim, other than it looks like babies can get all that stuff from breastmilk, so might not need meat, unless there is any other reason.
What I'm calling a problem is the authoritarian cultlike behavior that demands obedience to a moral code at the expense of reason. The problem is that they use authority to shut down anyone who looks at things objectively, even if when person might be arriving at the same conclusions they did (and if you read carefully, I did say that it looks like babies don't need meat if they are breast fed).
Or maybe they feel that human breast milk is not a vegan enough for them. If so, what can I say?
I really did my best to be objective about looking at the husband's claim. That's really important in a marriage, and especially with kids. Because when the kids see mom manipulating and undermining dad, they learn that behavior and disrespect dad.
@doG
A cult/? I don't think so for most. It seems like a pragmatic and healthy life style. I've seldom run across an obese vegan or vegetarian. I suspect their rates of heart disease, diabetes some forms of cancer are also lower than average .
Very occasionally, I've run across vegetarians who are a bit precious ,even self deceptive about it. EG I know a woman who calls herself a vegetarian because she "only eats fish"
Around 70% of all the food I eat is vegetarian. Not a conscious choice, that's just how it works out.
@cranky47 IT's not about whether or not vegans are healthy or if the vegan diet contributes to that. It's about someone saying: "I think [taboo] is ok" and someone else coming along and, instead of saying "oh, so you think [taboo] is ok, huh? Well, let's see if that's the case."
It's that it's moral blasphemy for them to consider that possibility.
They can't have a civil objective discussion. Worse, they can't have a civil, objective discussion with people who mostly hold the same position as they do. That's what's wrong with them.
Nonetheless, although the administrator, "Indian Summer", of that vegan forum website represents people who choose to not eat meat as irrational cultists does not mean that all people who choose to eat meat are irrational cultists.
Garrett Smith, I don't give a flying fuck what problems you had with another forum. Take it up with them, don't spill it over into this place.
You need to get your head on straight before you accuse others of being irrational.
Nobody is forcing you to post here. My post and arguments remain, are valid, and stand on their own.
That is correct Garrett, I do not have to read this thread or comment. But I have the right to freedom of speech (within reasonable limits).
And what I am witnessing is a teen adolescent drama, where a child has issues, and instead of addressing them internally, goes around to everyone else and sobs their little tale and attempt to get everyone involved.
So what you go banned? Understand this: that forum is owned by someone and since they own it in it's entirety, can ban anyone they choose.
Fucking snowflakes.
@David: Exactly why you have not seen me in this forum...... LOL: Sometimes, it's just not worth it.
@ Cog
All I have seen from this character is him airing old grievances against other forums.
Other forums THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS FORUM.
@David Killens
My analysis is clear as day in my initial post here. I've drawn a clear association for why the mentality of those vegans — or Vegans — is cultlike.
Do you need me to spell it out for you again, you dumb cunt, so everyone can see what an ass you're making of yourself? Fine. Last time for you, fuckface…
Their behavior is cultlike behavior because demands obedience to a moral code in absence and defiance of evidence and reason.
Claiming to not recognize my claim does not make the claim not there, it just betrays a lack of honest effort at understanding what was written. Now go tuck your tail and leave this debate. Good riddance, and I'm done with you.
Kindly cease your dishonest, counterproductive shitposting.
Re: Garrett
Uh-oh... Baby throwums tempers-tantrums.... *reaching for pacifier*... *peeking into diaper to check for a poo-poo*.... Poor wittle snowfwake... Tsk-tsk-tsk... Wooks wike time for a diapie change.... *pinching nose shut*... Phew! Gonna be a bad one.... *donning biohazard suit*....
(And he wonders why he gets banned from so many sites... *rolling eyes*... *chuckle*...)
Basic psychology. Put a little heat on a person and they reveal their true side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_P-YJbu0wg
@ Garrett,
David Killens does NOT have to stop posting. As you are not one of the mods, you might try to order that someone stop posting but it’s not going to result in any action. He is not breaking any forum guidelines so is welcome to post whatever, inside of the guidelines, he likes, in whatever string he likes, in response to whomever he likes.
@Cyber...going back in time to the early 2000s I didn’t know how to think for myself. I’d come across a cool post or info, like it, copy and paste it proudly as “my” own thoughts. I was a fuckin’ idiot. Was too stupid to understand “plagiarism” - nowadays I can proudly claim this written shit as my own messed up thoughts...
@CyberLN
David Killens is shitposting to evoke a response. He said so himself.
If you can point me to instructions to to block users like that, I'd be grateful.
I doubt that.
----------------------------------------------------------
I REALLY doubt that.
Garrett, I cannot point you to directions on how to block users. You haven’t the appropriate set of site permissions. That’s for the mods to do. It’s obvious that Mr. Killens is not considered to be in violation of forum guidelines or he would already be banned.
I would suggest that if you find his posts distasteful, you simply pass them by.
@ Garrett
My initial posts were purely a response to my distaste that you were practicing such childish drama. I did not want to draw you out, I have never intended any trolling, I don't want to have anything to do with you, I don't like you.
@Garrett Re: "David Killens is shitposting to evoke a response. He said so himself."
...*donning HAZMAT suit (again)*... Oh my goodness gracious. Is it already time for another diaper changing? Poor little darling... You may want to consider cutting back on the fiber a bit...
@Garrett
"Kindly cease your dishonest, counterproductive shitposting."
Okey dokey.
Coarse ad hominems do not make your point. They simply suggest an adolescent not in control of his feelings and make your posts unpleasant to read.. Plus of course such dummy spits lose you what little credibility you might have had.
Nah, you won't be banned for attacking others as you have been doing. (only because I have no say) .All that will happen is that you will be ignored by some and handed your head by others. .
@cranky47 My arguments *still* stand on their own. Did you have a question? Try to follow along and stay on topic.
Pretty much everyone consumes products derived from animals; even vegetarians and vegans. They just consume a lot less.
People can get “culty” over anything. However I determine a cult through one standard (there are many, this is just my first go to)... the BITE model
Belief control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control
There are probably some aspects that touch on what could be construed as cult like behavior...
However it is more likely they are living within an echo chamber and are basically at best, guilty of confirmation bias.
Unfortunately, everyone these days appears to hold a PhD *sarcasm* in whatever position they hold dear.
We are all like it unfortunately.
For the record I am a meat eater on occasion and dont particular care if the first light a chicken sees, is the one in my gas oven. :)
@Randomhero1982
https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-i...
"Something has gone wrong with the flow of information. It’s not just that different people are drawing subtly different conclusions from the same evidence. It seems like different intellectual communities no longer share basic foundational beliefs. Maybe nobody cares about the truth anymore, as some have started to worry. Maybe political allegiance has replaced basic reasoning skills. Maybe we’ve all become trapped in echo chambers of our own making – wrapping ourselves in an intellectually impenetrable layer of likeminded friends and web pages and social media feeds."
This is what I'm talking about.
It's a real problem when we can't have a conversation about beliefs, including why we believe them, what other people believe instead, or even what is real.
The individual is the smallest minority and individuality being steamrolled. Libertarians blocked and banned me when I asked reasonable questions on age of consent being 18 in one state and 16 in another, and raising the question of trauma caused by state boundaries. And Reddit's LGBT sub, and The_Donald, and so on. All questions.
Positions regarding truth must be formed only on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism. Never authority, tradition, revelation, dogma, or faith.
Free thinking individuals form and accept ideas on the basis of their own appraisal, not because of what other people say or endorse.
If you can't explain why you hold a certain belief, or why you think that that belief is true and correct, or your level of surety, then that's a problem.
Social or religious belief systems tied to culture can be best improved by civil discourse, not by banning, condemning, shaming, etc. Freedom to believe whatever one believes should be allowed. If someone believes homosexuality is a sin or simply has a negative outlook on it, what do you do? Modern thinking would be to ban and report them everywhere so they can be hated and shunned for being homophobic. That has a chilling effect on what can be thought; not on thought processes.
How to think is more important and valuable than having some authority define what to think.
I need to stop typing and sleep. I did a lot of work today!
I will attempt to bring everyone together under one agreement...I present, The Shroud of Turnip.
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I am a retired MD. The Vegan diet is very borderline nutritionally. It is not adequate for children or adolescents because it is deficient in calcium, iron, essential fatty acids. The humans require B-12 and it is essentially only available from animal sources. Persons may go for months without B-12 in their diet because they have large amounts stored up in their liver. The MDR for B-12 is tiny (10 micrograms) and can be met by eating one egg a week. Clinically the only cases of B-12 deficiency I ever treated were persons with Pernicious Anemia (PA). This is an autoimmune caused by loss of function of "intrinsic factor", a protein in the stomach that is necessary for absorption of dietary B-12. Lack of B-12 can cause permanent nerve damage and severe anemia. Before the discovery of the cause of PA in 1929, this was a fatal illness. These persons generally are treated with monthly injection of B-12. The other problem as mentioned was the issue of iron. I had a female vegan patient come in with severe anemia due to iron deficiency. This is a common problem because women need more iron due to menses and pregnancy. Normally people have extra iron stored in the bone marrow and liver. There are blood tests for Iron and iron-binding capacity that can evaluate the amount of iron. Most flour and some other foods are fortified with iron and most MD's prescribe vitamins and iron supplements to pregnant patients. This is to build up iron stores and keep the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood optimal during pregnancy and childbirth. Although vegans cite tables that show the B-12 and iron content of various plant foods this doesn't mean that they are getting enough of these nutrients. This is because the B-12 and iron in plant sources are in forms (non-heme iron) that are not absorbed well. In fact you must have stomach acid and Vitamin C to absorb iron. There are also some foods that interfere with iron absorption. I would tend to advise vegans to take supplemental vitamins and iron. The MDR is a minimum amount of a nutrient needed to prevent deficiency , not the optimum amount needed for good health. MDR for vitamin C of 60 mg may be enough to prevent scurvy but studies show that the optimum is more like 500 mg. Same with iron. MDR of 10 mg may be enough to prevent anemia but it is not enough to restore or maintain iron stores. For suggestions on how to get around this on a vegan diet see https://www.nomeatathlete.com/iron-for-vegetarians/
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