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doubleAtheist's picture

This site has alot of opinions on alot of different views, not sure if the views on circumsision has been addressed or not..

My views: I am against circumsision of a child, anyone can get a circumsision if they want to, but mutalating a voiceless child never made sense to me, they do not give pain meds to the baby for the reason that they will not remember the pain... Which is a horrible argument.

Circumsision takes away from sexual pleasure, cutting off the most sensitive part of the male genetalia will result in less enjoyable sex.

What are your views on circumsision? Thank GOD im not circumsized...o wait...

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ThePragmatic's picture
If you ask me, the correct

If you ask me, the correct term should be "genital mutilation".

Cutting away pieces of a newborn child, for no good reason other than following an ancient text, should be outlawed. If one does this because they believe in a god, don't they think that their god could construct his most priced creation "the human" without having to cut away pieces?

That said, it's one thing to cut away the skin flap on boys, as long as it's done correctly and with proper hygiene (yes, I'm looking at you, Orthodox Jews). Assuming the job isn't botched, and the boy does not die from herpes infection, there is no real damage to the sexual function.

But the violations they do on little girls is far worse, there is a good reason it's called "genital mutilation". The problem is a lot bigger than some people claim. It's not only being done in a few places in Africa.
It's a big problem in India and Indonesia.
And all countries that have taken immigrants and refugees that bring their "tradition" with them. In the UK, they have been starting up attempts to gather statistic:

"For the month of March 2015:
• 145 eligible acute trusts in England submitted signed off data.
• 3,164 active case and 578 newly identified cases of FGM were reported nationally.
For the period of September 2014 to March 2015:
• 3,963 newly identified cases of FGM reported nationally.
• 60 newly identified cases of FGM reported nationally were under the age of 18."

That's "578 newly identified cases" in one single month!

Similar information initiatives have been attempted in my country, Sweden, because there have been many reports of girls/women who seek care after having preformed illegal genital mutilations.

Freedom of religion, screw that! How about freedom from involuntary genital mutilation for children?!

doubleAtheist's picture
I agree 100%

I agree 100%

hermitdoc's picture
To set the record straight,

To set the record straight, most physicians who do circumcision (myself included) do use anesthesia for the procedure. I use lidocaine given in a dorsal penile block and oral sucrose, both of which have been shown to reduce “pain behavior” in the infant. My personal experience is that most infants either sleep through the procedure or are quietly awake. I doubt that traditional circumcision done by the jewish dudes who do the procedure is done with anesthesia, but I suspect that those are a minority of circumcisions in the U.S.
There have been multiple studies documenting the medical advantages of circumcision.
I have included position statements from the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Family Physicians. You are welcome to investigate the literature yourself. As per any topic, I would encourage you to read legit science (JAMA, NEJM etc…) and not inflammatory anti-circumcision web sites for actual science.
As for the religious end of it, and I have no hard data or evidence for this, but I suspect that as with most thing religious, circumcision was simply co-opted by religion as a way to reinforce adherence to dogma. I suspect that circumcisions were being performed long before religion got a hold of it for medical reasons. One can imagine that people noticed that uncircumcised males tended to die more often from urinary tract infections, penile tumors and urinary retention due to phimosis and at some point, someone thought to cut the foreskin off to try to deal with these problems and thus the development of the procedure. It likely wasn’t until later that religion got involved.
As a medical person, I can take or leave circumcision. I counsel parents that with good hygiene, most uncircumcised boys do fine and have no problems, but with parents that are unlikely to do a good job (and there are a lot of them….trust me) I think that ultimately, circumcision is better for the boy.

doubleAtheist's picture
Thanks for your input, do you

Thanks for your input, do you think that the child should have a say and just wait till old enough to make the decision on their own, it does remove the most sensitive part..

Nyarlathotep's picture
Sam - "As for the religious

Sam - "As for the religious end of it, and I have no hard data or evidence for this, but I suspect that as with most thing religious, circumcision was simply co-opted by religion as a way to reinforce adherence to dogma."

Exactly; just like some of the dietary laws were probably co-opted from food safety practicalities of the time.

hermitdoc's picture
Given that prevention of

Given that prevention of neonatal UTI is one of the most compelling reasons to do circumcision, waiting until age of consent (what ever that is) would seem not a great idea. I have attached another study in regard to the sexual function issue as well.
The reality is, we do all sorts of stuff to kids without their consent. We vaccinate them, we perform all sorts of surgical procedures on them that may or may not be necessarily needed (hernia repairs, removal of various skin abnormalities, tonsillectomies etc....). At some point, we have to go where the real evidence points us and for most physicians, that is to do circumcisions (if the parents want it).

ThePragmatic's picture
@ Sam

@ Sam

I'm not criticising medical professionals or the procedure itself, if it's done correctly. I'm criticising the superstitious beliefs and unnecessary surgical procedures based on those unwarranted beliefs.

To explain my comment about Orthodox Jewish circumcision, the tradition calls for the rabbi to remove the skin flap and blood with his mouth, "cleaning the circumcision wound by oral suction". In doing so they transfer Type 1 herpes to the child. This has caused a number of deaths that have been mentioned in news media.

"The reality is, we do all sorts of stuff to kids without their consent."

I agree, it goes without saying that it's unavoidable.
But vaccination for example, has a valid purpose, even beyond the benefit of the individual. If circumcisions on newborn boys are made explicitly for a medical purpose, that is a completely different matter.
But every procedure also means a risk, of varying degree of course, and to circumcise because you believe it's what a holy deity ordered thousands of years ago, is to take that risk based on pure delusions.

This is an example in Canada, where the parents were persuaded to circumcise their boy, who slowly bleed to death over a week.

hermitdoc's picture
I agree that to do it based

I agree that to do it based on purely religious grounds is ridiculous. I also agree that there is risk to the procedure. It was a fairly poor comparison for me to equate vaccination with circumcision, but I hope you get my point. I am also completely appalled by the way the orthodox jews do it. My point is that it probably started being done for some valid, other than religious reason and religion then "owned it" and now it is done partly due to cultural/religious reasons and partly due to valid medical reasons. For what it's worth, almost no parents say they want it to express their religious beliefs. Most say "I don't want him to be made fun of in the locker room" or " his dad is so he will be".

doubleAtheist's picture
Is there any other way to get

Is there any other way to get the same result circumsisions give? Obviously you are more educated on this topic, so is there another procedure or treatment which gives the same outcome? I think that would be a good use of some recources..

hermitdoc's picture
Not to my knowledge. As it

Not to my knowledge. As it stands now, the only way to remove the foreskin is to cut it off. There is an instrument that is used in Africa, which is essentially self applied (for older men, obviously) but ultimately the foreskin has to be removed to have the positive effects of it being gone. HPV vaccination may change the data for circumcision lowering the risk of cervical cancer, but that remains to be seen.
Also, as a clarification, I am by no means trying to argue about the absolute necessity of the procedure. As I stated before, I can take it or leave it, especially for males who live in the developed world. (Although from a technical and manual dexterity standpoint, it is a fairly satisfying procedure to do), I'm simply trying to provide the medical provider point of view to try to combat the perception that we are all just money hungry, foreskin hating butchers running around whacking off babies penises. Most of the time, we are doing things that truly are based on reasonably good evidence.

ThePragmatic's picture
@ Sam

@ Sam

I agree with the points you make above.

"I'm simply trying to provide the medical provider point of view..."

And it's great that you do. It's interesting to hear different perspectives from people with different experiences.

" try to combat the perception that we are all just money hungry, foreskin hating butchers running around whacking off babies penises."

One of the weirdest sentences I have ever read. :)

Oh, the link you posted requires a login...

hermitdoc's picture
Sorry about the bad link.

Sorry about the bad link.
Here's another.

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