Crushed, looking for hope

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Whitefire13's picture
Here’s a real life story for

Here’s a real life story for those interested in reading it from my JW days, when I started to actually “think”.

The WTBTS (WatchTower Bible & Tract Society) linked through the book of revelation, the UN (United Nations) as a demonic organization used by Satan in this “world order”. All sorts of symbols in John’s delusional scribbling were
attributed to it - AND believe me, it was going “down” to be thoroughly destroyed by Jehovah!!!
As a regular JW, you couldn’t buy cookies from your local Girl Guides or go to a YMCA otherwise you were polluting yourself with false worship and would be destroyed. YOU had to “stay clean”.

Imagine my surprise when I came across this article:

Now, to be fair, I had already begun raising my own questions, considering how I was being treated by Jehovah’s people when I was questioning my own treatment by my loving, Christian husband.... BUT

Talk about “mind blown”. I wrote a letter to Mr. Bates, and the UN and the WTBTS! Oops... the JW elders called me in. My heart had “hardened” and I was now an apostate - kicked my skinny ass to the curb.

BEST thing those fuckers did for me in a llloooonnnggggg time ;) “thank god”

Edited to add:

Screen shots of the whole shitfest and a more thorough explanation. My WTBTS letter said they did it to gain access to the UN Library. I called the “library” and it was explained to me how it worked. I could have accessed anything from my location in Alberta (given some time and a car to travel to Edmonton)...

Sheldon's picture
TheFlyingPig "Who or what

TheFlyingPig "Who or what defines what constitutes “ religion “ ? Is Secular Humanism a religion ?"

I usually start with the dictionary, since it contains the most commonly used and understood definition(s).

1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2. A particular system of faith and worship.
3. A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

I'd say Secular humanism is an ideology, but calling it a religion seems tenuous, as even the least used definition (3) seems too broad or vague to apply anything but the most tenuous description.

TheFlyingPig's picture
So the people who originated

So the people who originated the Humanist Manifesto in the early thirties in the US and called themselves “Religious Humanists “ are what ? They by their own definition believed themselves to be Religious

Whitefire13's picture
...LOL. The early ‘30s!!!!

...LOL. The early ‘30s!!!!

You are sooooo full of shit YOU STINK :)

That’s the BEST “reason” or “argument” you can think of - brain on “pause” or more obviously “rewind”!


Hey! Nigger! Know you’re place! Reference to “To Kill a Mocking Bird”

Stupid prick

Sheldon's picture
"So the people who originated

"So the people who originated the Humanist Manifesto in the early thirties in the US and called themselves “Religious Humanists"

So what, you asked:

TheFlyingPig "Who or what defines what constitutes “ religion “ ? Is Secular Humanism a religion ?"

So I gave an answer based on the commonly used and understood definitions. The word becomes meaningless if its definition is ignored when people use it. I can call myself a king, what does that prove?

"They by their own definition believed themselves to be Religious"

They don't get to have their own personal definition, that's the point you seem to be missing.

From now on I am King Sheldon, you will all please address me as your majesty, I shall of course be levying a royal tax on all my subjects.

Cognostic's picture
@The Flying Pig: I regard

@The Flying Pig: I regard it as a religion. It is a religion in the same way that communism was a religion or Buddhism is a religion. It is better defined as an ideology; however, the more adherent one is to its tenets the more religious the ideology looks.

The Principles of Secular Humanism

1. We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

2. We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation. (I completely disagree with #2, I never deplore. Instead, I ask for facts and evidence that support the claims the secularists make and reject them when such facts and evidence are not available.)

3. We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life. (*Slimy language here. Religion can also contribute to the betterment of humanity. ) It's one thing to believe it and another thing to demand.

4. We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities. (Some socialist countries seem to be doing quite well. The USA is not actually a Democracy. It is a Representative Republic.. While I tend to agree with democratic values, I don't assume they are the best or only way to exist in the world. Germany was democratic when they elected Hitler to be their leader. Something to think about. And we have elected Trump for a leader? Life and democratic values are weird.)

5. We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state. (* Complete disagreement. The state should require religions to pay taxes and open their books to the public, just like every other non-profit agency in the country. Religion should not be exempt from government regulation.)

6. We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding. (Bla bla bla - empty bullshit words. We all look to negotiation and compromise when solving problems. )

This list goes on and on. I would say that it can be used as a religious canon in the minds of some followers. Believing is seeing. Be careful what you believe because that will color the way you see the world around you. Any belief taken to the extreme can be religious in nature and therefore ignorantly dangerous.

TheFlyingPig's picture

Thanks for your thoughtful reply . I agree that secular humanism can rightly be called a Religion and considering that Marxism is humanism then while the call against “Religion “ for atrocities committed is warranted ,it is not a balanced charge while the atrocities of the last century committed by Marxist Humanists number in the untold tens of millions are conveniently left out of the conversation by posters who level the atrocity charges against “Religion”
I disagree with #2 100%. Science cannot explain and will never be able to explain the most basic questions concerning human life . A “God of the gaps “ answer is insufficient in dealing with the questions .

algebe's picture
@TheFlyingPig: Who or what

@TheFlyingPig: Who or what defines what constitutes “ religion “ ?

By derivation, the word "religion" means "binding". Adherents are bound to certain beliefs, rituals, dress, diet, etc. Those bonds aren't imaginary, either. Historically, non-compliance has resulted in terrible punishments, and that's still the case in some Islamic countries today.

Off-hand, I can't think of a single binding requirement for secular humanism, which is really a philosophy of rejecting the self-imposed manacles of faith. There's no orthodoxy or heresy, no popes or imams. It's a religion in the sense that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

TheFlyingPig's picture

I can apply all those values that you say are marks of “Religion “ and identify Marxism as a fully fledged “Religion “ . We know how many people died at the hands of Marxist Humanists in the last century and yet I have met very few self identifying Atheists who have the same venom for the crimes against humanity by these Humanists as they do for the atrocities committed by organized religion .

Whitefire13's picture
LOL sailing swine... imagine,

LOL sailing swine... imagine, coming to an atheist site and saying I have “no skin in the game”

BULLSHIT...religious fanboys are continually injecting their “god of today’s flavour” into society, into schools and laws ... oh, and not contributing to that same society via taxes!

Laughable! Christians get pretty irate talking about pockets of Muslims adhereing to Sharia Law within westernized countries - LOL

I love your Einstein quote.... at the time, 1879-1955 science had made many breakthroughs -
AND there was science that was influenced by “the thought of the day” ie women’s intellectual abilities; eugenics... religion held sway...where do you think these over-riding “thoughts of the day” came from?!?????

Plus, I don’t think I get to ask him directly what he thought an “atheist” was...

Someone who says “There is no god..” I’d say the same to them as to you - “prove it”.

boomer47's picture


"Someone who says “There is no god..” I’d say the same to them as to you - prove it”.

Just so.

The person who states "there is no god" or "I believe there is no god" is making affirming claim and attracts the burden of proof .

The problem is that as metaphysical claims generally tend to be, claims about the existence of god remain unfalsifiable.

If the non existence of God was proved I doubt it would change much of anything. For the atheist business as usual. Probably the same for vast numbers of believers,who would simply reject the proof outright,as is their wont with any unwelcome facts. However, one would hope there would be a gratifying number of suicides of believers who couldn't cope without their crutch .

If the existence of god was proved I guess there might be an unsettling number of new converts among the unthinking classes. For this atheist, it would depend. IE Which god? Simply an impersonal prime cause, or a god with provable attributes.? YHWH of the Torah.? This atheist would immediately cave, with much manly tugging off the forelock (if I had one) and look around for some one to sacrifice. If some other god,I think I might want a few answers first. Such as his /her justification for evil and suffering. All contact from me would depend on how likely god was to smite me if I got uppity.

Whitefire13's picture
Cranks...yes which god? For

Cranks...yes which god? For myself, man made gods are myths ... I don’t think I’ve encountered a presentation of one that “makes any sort of sense” and it’s usually presented as “definite full out truth”... I’ve yet to be convinced by what is offered as proof.

However, I don’t like to limit our (humanities) ability to gain knowledge.

And then there is always the slim chance that god might come out of “hiding”...

Whitefire13's picture
WOW - god worked fast on this

WOW - god worked fast on this one.
No mention of “soon”!

OK here it is.

Firstly, men are incapable of understanding her message. She created them first as a prototype for the next best thing (think upgrades)...and she gave them a penis because it’s ugly to remind them they were the first trial run.
Eve lead the way to knowledge and was given the ability to actually bring forth life (unlike men who hold only a potential and a contribution).
However She (sorry, I forget to capitalize, but she told me that’s ok because she’s humble and doesn’t give a fuck) saw that men were waving their parts around and decided to give them a further reminder...circumcision - the woman’s was “perfect”
Men were given the job to “support” the woman so she could lead the way, advance society, because of female curiousity and relentless quest for knowledge, but alas “man” took this to mean she was to just cook and clean.
Her genetic line was intact, no questions raised as to the “mother” but again, men took it to mean the offspring were “his” and the woman onlyproperty to produce it (hence concubines and many wives).
She’s forgiving though and nonetheless patient with the male version of herself, for she contains these same “male” qualities. And like her, we her female counterparts, are just waiting for the male side to recognize her infinite wisdom.
Once that is accomplished she’ll move us forward with her “plans” - but she’s just been waiting, for what, thousands of “earth” years, and “man” is starting to somewhat “get” it, depending on the culture.

THERE - happy now. Gods nature is now explained - strait from “spirit”.

EDITED to add: feel free to “paste and copy” any section and use it as proof of gods nature - ensure you wave it in front of men so they “know” they have “no skin in the game”

Cognostic's picture
Try this: https://www
LostAndBroken's picture
Full version to Licona vs.

Full version to Licona vs. Carrier:

I'll probably start it today. Thanks.

dogalmighty's picture
" The thought of life without

" The thought of life without this god is not only exceedingly difficult to bear, but incredibly strange. It's like I've been living a delusion this whole time (and in a sense, you can say that I was);"

Well yes, as you found out, believing in something without objective evidence, is by definition, delusional. It is a christians belief in a god/jesus, and the blind promotion of said unfounded belief, that is his failure in reason. That recognition of christianity's and ultimately your, failure in reason, is your savior in a have saved yourself, by being critical about your belief in a god, who you have discovered that he has zero objective evidence in reality.

"now I don't know what to believe about anything."

Well you are on the right track. Define things as real or true by being critical about them.

"If our emotions are just the result of physical processes and evolution, what meaningful value do they have?"

Your emotions are at the root of your survival. You react to things based on your emotion, which may ultimately lead to increased survival, in certain situations. That value, is distinctly meaningful.

"Just subjective value? If so, to me, this is a horrible thought."

No, objectively, on the same line as previous, demonstrable evidence shows our fight flight mechanism improves survival. Again value decidedly meaningful.

"And what about everything around me -- it wasn't designed, but just happened by chance? Why then care about anything?"

Again, you have evolved to ultimately survive...and keep the species going. Caring, is a tenet of survival of our species. We need to care about each other, and ultimately everything.

"How can I see beauty in chance?"

Do you think a flower, despite its utilitarian value, which is amazing, is beautiful? or do you think anything is beautiful? I am sure you do. Well, beauty is not a factor of belief. You have been duped to think that your natural emotions are given to you by an unsubstantiated religious dogma, instead of your own brain. I am an atheist, and think that flowers, and many many other things, are god needed.

"How can I love a woman whose personality is the result of chance?"

In the same way that you love that flower. No different. I have loved my wife for a long time...and our love is not defined by what a book dictates...its defined by us.

"I'm extremely stressed. I fear that I've misinterpreted, and Jesus is true, and I'll suffer in hell."

Well, we can postulate, using objective evidence, what is real, and what is not. However, as we do not yet know everything, hence, we presently can not absolutely rule out your god. The likeliness however of his/her/its reality, defined by what we presently objectively know, which is near infinitely unlikely. Do you have any objective evidence of a hell's existence in reality? The only reason you even fear this, is because of someone else's irrational belief.

"I fear that I've interpreted correctly, and nothing will ever matter, and my life will one day end -- really end."

Well, you can't go back now...unless you find evidence that objectively validates christianity, or any god for that you now know that would be a failure in basic human reason, and quite irrational. Do you have any objective evidence of an afterlife? Defined by what we presently objectively know, an afterlife, is near infinitely unlikely. The only reason you even fear this, is because of someone else's irrational belief. Using the same line of logic, we have mountains of demonstrable objective evidence, that all people eventually die. Enjoy the beauty, revel in your feelings, and interactions, and seek the things that you enjoy. while you life is precious.

"Throughout the day, it's hard to not sob. Sometimes when I'm trying to sleep, I suddenly gasp and flash to this new worldview, and I feel terrified."

You can thank christianity for that...but as an ex-christian, you will lose that baggage.

"I can't just 'fake' it."

Thank god! :P

LostAndBroken's picture


Whitefire13's picture
Lost &Broken...

Lost &Broken...

Am I doing your investigation for you?


Or are you a “believer” getting me to “look” (which is fine btw, just your approach is dishonest)...

So straight off the bat, I’m looking in your book of choosing? The bible. ‘K. I’ve had some tthrow Nostradamus at me. Had no problem with that.

I noticed firsthand this disclaimer:

The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.


And then, “what in your mind” constitutes “prophesy?

So for example, how specific a standard for “prophecy” do you hold - how much interpretive “wiggle room” is there? Think Nostradamus- like are these prophecies, before I read them, going to be as vague or interpretive as his?

Just curious and thought I’d set out some agreeable standard first that reasonable?

LostAndBroken's picture
'Am I doing your

'Am I doing your investigation for you?


Or are you a “believer” getting me to “look” (which is fine btw, just your approach is dishonest)...'


You read my OP, and this is how you come back? You should know that I'm still doubting and trying to make my world make sense. Very rude response... I shouldn't have come here to try to get help. Humanity sucks, and we all have to do this thing alone.... *I* have to do this thing alone.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: L & B - "Very rude

Re: L & B - "Very rude response... I shouldn't have come here to try to get help. Humanity sucks, and we all have to do this thing alone...."

And there you go, ladies and gentlemen! The offended victim card has been played! Was wondering how long that would take... *chuckle*...

Whitefire13's picture
Tin ...

Tin ...
Lost&Bound wasn’t offended by the genocide or slavery....


Tin-Man's picture
@White Re: "Lost&Bound wasn

@White Re: "Lost&Bound wasn’t offended by the genocide or slavery...."

That is because those things were committed and sanctioned by God. Therefore, they are okay. However, heaven forbid a mere mortal ask tough questions that challenge a person's beliefs. That shit is simply uncalled for and rude. Shame on you!

Whitefire13's picture
Hey ***** head looking around

Hey ***** head looking around **** HELLO ?!?!!

Where’d you go?

H E L L O!!!!!

Fuck, did I scare him off? Jeez loueez that was not my intention!

Stupid dumb me for asking questions! Fuck! I still haven’t learnt to “sit” like a nice little girl and listen...

Here’s the link he deleted, AND he wanted help “understanding” or “debunking” the prophecies.

Hummmppphhhhh - ask for help and then just fly away.

“Caught up by that spirit in the sky...” (humming to self)

Edit ... my bad! There you are!!! Maybe a bathroom break. Did you have time to read my posts below before you deleted your link?

Whitefire13's picture
Hello....I even used

Hello....I even used Deuteronomy!!!!

I don’t get it - isn’t this what you wanted?!??!!!!

Whitefire13's picture
While waiting and I’m “bed

While waiting and I’m “bed bound” - LOL I decided to move past Moses to Joshua (because Joshua was to take the promised land and carry the Ark of Covenant around - now that #5 “Thou shalt not kill” was removed ...made his job a little easier)

I think it’s pretty straightforward that Jehovah or just plain God, promised the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He wanted Joshua to feel at ease with his new assignment (after all, Moses got left behind because God was mad)... Deut. 3:26-28 chptr 6 (Joshua to nation) & 7:1,2 (assignment) “ 7 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Promise made.
Prophesy to forefathers.

Kept promise? Accurate prophesy? Lol

Joshua’s no dummy. He doesn’t want this promise or prophesy to hinge on the Israelites behaviour (they’re memory was so short that after Egypt they were off worshipping something else) AND he knew how they were in the wilderness- so Joshua wanted a straightforward answer regarding this, “Would they be taking the land because they were living up to the Law?” (After all the law was given to demonstrate how imperfect they were and there was no way anyone of them could live up to it)

God makes it crystal clear: “... do not say to yourself, “The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you.” (Deut 9: 4 and further vs5-6) “ to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.”

God knew his people were stiff necked! It really had nothing to do “with” them...sounds like they were along for the ride.

Killing parts, resource stealing parts (I’m keeping this PG) ;)
BUT genocide is not an acceptable practice,
neither is slavery (but that’s for another thread).

Joshua 11:23. “ So Joshua took the entire land, just as the Lord had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions. Then the land had rest from war.”

Seems complete. Promise and prophesy is in tact! Good - bbbbuuuttttt wait! .... what’s this,

Joshua 13 (chapter) - oops Jehovah decided to “double check his work?!?! He seemed happy enough with the “entire” land wiped out as previously mentioned - but alas:

When Joshua had grown old, the Lord said to him, “You are now very old, and there are still very large areas of land to be taken over....

Whaaaaa????? Great way to send him off into retirement!

2 “This is the land that remains (reading of lands listed above in prophesy/promise)

MORE WAR boys ....

Nope, nadda, zip. Either god or his writers have problems keeping the facts strait.

Don’t sweat the whole “come here under a dishonest agenda” - as a former JW from decades ago, it was called “spiritual warfare” and gave us a clean conscious for lying. BUT I don’t know you, you just might hate research in which case I’m not doing it for you anymore because I already read my bible - read yours :)

Example of vague prophecy (when setting a standard) -
Say I predict “Victoria will fall” (fancier language of you’re a Notredamus fanboy)

Would it be a person tripping
A city (capital of BC) enduring an earthquake
The English monarchy being dismantled

All very different answers but could fulfil my prediction depending....

Nyarlathotep's picture
Whitefire13 - Here’s the

Whitefire13 - Here’s the [link] he deleted, AND he wanted help “understanding” or “debunking” the prophecies.

To my delight, that page has some math on it! Let's check it out:

link - Some time before 500 BC, the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26).


Daniel 9:25-26 - Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Seems like someone doesn't know the difference between a week and a year. There are other very serious problems as well (his first probability calculation is off by an order of magnitude, even if we assume all the dubious dates listed are accurate, which implies 500 = 5000 = 10,000), but it is hard to top: weeks = years.

ps: And these problems are only the first ones to jump out at me, from the first probability calculation; there are 12 more I haven't looked at.

Whitefire13's picture
Nyar... LOL

Nyar... LOL

When I saw the whole post gone AND the link,
Oops ... I don’t think he wanted me “helping” anymore.

I was “helping” enough as it was with basic bible stories that “get you to Christ”. AND the basic stories that Jesus himself believed! AND if you believe Jesus was god - WROTE ...


Whitefire13's picture

And BTW - ANY persons of the male persuasion or sex...

“She” says that if you recognize that a person can be whoever they want to be and enjoy whatever “role” or “job” or “career” they want and you do the same and through empathic communication and reason agreements and acceptance is extended, in some cases “partnerships” and “love” shown through actions and words...

Don’t take seriously the first prototype analogy - it was just Her way of demonstrating how different the “good book” may have read if a Matriarchal Society had dominated.

But I trust ya’ll knew that.... ;)

Whitefire13's picture
Nyar ...” ...doesn't know the

Nyar ...” ...doesn't know the difference between a week and a year.”

They use a scriptural “principle” of one day = one year

So if I was to say times, time and half a time
It “could be”... 1+2+.5
365+430+132= 927
Which would be “days” BUT mean “years” and “voila” number magic.

Take a starting point - plunk this in and now you got accurate prophecy!

Oh, and if I’m off the “times” might be a “3”

Nyarlathotep's picture
Whitefire13 - They use a

Whitefire13 - They use a scriptural “principle” of one day = one year

Well I've heard that before. I've also been told that a day to god doesn't not mean a day to man. So apparently day = week = year = anything you want.

Then after all that, some people have the audacity to make claims about accuracy.


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