Relationship with god?
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"A stop?" It means to make sure that whatever you are testing is not wrong, but right, or ok.
@ Hawk Flint
"It's always good to doubt. We need to be correct of our religion, so as to not suffer eternally."
Very nice to see that you value doubt!
But, to say that you need doubt to avoid eternal suffering is interesting. Do you have doubts about hell being real?
"But, to say that you need doubt to avoid eternal suffering is interesting. Do you have doubts about hell being real?"
95% Sure. There are to many references in the NT. Also, if there is no hell, no "wrath of God," then what are we saved from? What did Christ die for?
Perhaps you should consult the other 5% on its opinion of the matter.......
That's what I said in my post. Ask questions to make sure what you were taught is consistent with logic, reason, and common sense.
I was speculating a postulate. Just like you say. See how I've flipped your "logic".
Um, I'm doing the same thing. And when a logical person juxtaposes our positions, they'll be able to see that I've been consistent, not you. You are the flip flopper.
Which way is the wind blowing Xavier?
I tricked you in to calling out a fault in my logic, which is the same logic you are using. Since the fault exists in mine, and mine is a copy of yours, the fault exists in yours as well. Great job shooting yourself in the arse with my gun.
I grew up in a Christian home and in the true religion by chance. Yes, we are who we are through our environment. But this doesn't negate, as I grew and matured mentally, my responsibly to question my upbringing, which I did. You'd be surprised that I don't believe everything my parents believe in, because it doesn't make sense.
True and "By chance" go together like oil and water.
What?! That's what you want me to accept from cosmology, we're here by chance in a true world! Haha!
A: True is not a word applicable to earth.
B: No, I was giving you the alternative you asked for.
How well do they go together?
Since my pupil sunk the goolge ship for me, i have pulled both of these definions from Merriam-Webster.com:
": the planet on which we live"
a (1) : being in accordance with the actual state of affairs (2) : conformable to an essential reality (3) : fully realized or fulfilled
b : ideal, essential
c : being that which is the case rather than what is manifest or assumed
d : consistent
a : properly so called
b (1) : possessing the basic characters of and belonging to the same natural group as (2) : typical "
To suggest that there is only one true place for us to live is madness, especially since the discovery of other habitable planets such as Kepler-422b and Wolf-1061c.
"I grew up in a Christian home and in the true religion by chance."
If you had grown up in Afghanistan, do you think you would not be a Muslim? Do you think you would have found your current version of religion?
Why do you believe you're in the "true religion"?
Have you ever met a religious person who felt they were not in the "true religion"? Now that would be weird!
Also, i wasent changing the definition, i was giving you the CORRECT one from a DICTIONARY. The dictionary is never wrong.
This debate is pointless. Gabriel is a nutter. He doesn't understand basic logical premises, and his entire "debate" has been similar to:
You're insulting him now?
Could you explain what exactly you have against the answer "I don't know".
When a person does not know, isn't that the honest answer? But to make something up just to be able to give an answer, isn't that to be dishonest?
How about we return to "Let's keep it simple".
You are suggesting that a conscious mind is needed to arrange element particles, otherwise everything would just be a chaotic mess of jumbled element particles? Is this correct?
Mr. Pragmatic, this is what I've been saying forever on this post. The only logical conclusion (to me) is when the properties of nature show order and fine-tuning, it evinces an intelligence behind it. Without it we would be a jumbled mess. And the only item that is known to possess attributes of order and fine tuning according to reality, experience, and logic is MIND. Now as I've mentioned, the Bible describes the Creator of this world as such. I've asked you to provide an alternative and you haven't. You seem to imply in your negation that matter is eternal and possess intrinsically properties of intelligence. This must be proven logically. How does organic matter come from nothing or how is it eternal, and how does it possess properties of intelligence without any intelligence behind it?
Well, to make your suggestion less confusing, I turned it around to avoid the debatable term "order" and instead focused on what your suggestion would mean if the MIND you are talking about would not be there to control matter, i.e. chaos: A jumbled mess of elementary particles.
(I used the wrong term earlier: 'element particles", I meant "elementary particles")
To continue to try and understand:
Is your suggestion, that this MIND is making the elementary particles attract and repel each other? The forces of binding and repelling is actually this MIND at work?
I would include gravity in this as well (and probably a lot of other forces that act on matter that I'm not thinking of right now, or haven't learned about).
[Edited slightly to improve the intended message]
MIND has given nature ALL of its properties. Whatever we discover nature to do, MIND gave it those properties, but those properties are self-governing, pre-programmed laws; like a computer programmer who programs a computer. So MIND is not directly controlling nature, rather through the pre-programmed laws, nature will do as it has been commanded to do. What you are getting confused is, MIND is responsible for everything, but isn't responsible for its interactions with each other.
Gabriel - "What you are getting confused is, MIND is responsible for everything, but isn't responsible for its interactions with each other."
That might be a new record here at AR; in that you managed to contradict yourself in the same sentence.
Prove it! Prove there is a "MIND" that did all that! Prove there is a "MIND" in the first place. You haven't proved anything. Not one damned thing!
Regarding my comment above: http://www.atheistrepublic.com/comment/40686
Am I understanding you correctly or could you explain what I'm getting wrong?
Of course! If I grew up in India I would probably be a Hindu. In China, a Buddhist. In the Middle East, a Muslim. But my upbringing doesn't and shouldn't define who me as I mature mentally. I mentioned this. When we grow into an independent thinker, we have the responsibility of questioning my upbringing that doesn't make sense. Our parents are not the end all be all; we have a responsibility to question all things and prove that which is good (1 Thess. 5:22). We see cases of this in the Bible. Abraham grew up in a household where his father worshiped idols (Josh. 24:2), but ended up rejecting this illogical view and worshipped the One True God (Gen. 12:1-2).
Now would have I discovered the true religion if I grew up in a false religion? Yes and no. It all depends on my earnest quest. If a person is persistent in searching for what is religiously right, a person can discover it. But then the Bible says to true seekers of God, it is our responsibility to spread the word and inform others of true religion (Matt. 28:19-20).
I believe I am in the true religion, because true religion, as defined by the Bible says and does things that are logical and reasonable. I disagree with the majority of the religious world, because many say and do things that are inconsistent with Biblical principles.