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Please do not evade. Please respond to my original question ...
Please offer your personal definition of "spiritual" and give a real world example.
I see spiritual as things that can spike to my emotions, passions, creativity, and yes, in my case, there are other aspects I that your going to wish to look for some kind of objective evidence that I personally find subjective truth in that you are going to abhor, and go ahead and tear into me over it. But even without those things, I would have no issue with being spiritual.
You want something I found spiritual? You ever see Gattaca? That was spiritual to me. The experience from that film welled emotion, spirit, passion and desire to be more than what reason and logic tells me I have to be. And there was no God required for any of that.
And isn't that the point? That spiritual can be something without the supernatural?
Just because someone believes in a Deity doesn't mean they can't see spirituality otherwise.
You have taken different emotions, thrown them into a blender, and called the result something that does not describe the original contents. Why not call sadness sadness? Or anger anger?
I watched Gattica, and some emotions I experienced was anger, joy, sadness. I knew when I was sad, I knew when I was angry. Maybe you need to sort your emotions out and understand each emotion individually.
I find the synergy of all those elements preferable to the dissection, and I'm not going to change how a perceive the art of that film because of a gnome's disdain for a particular word.
And that is why you wrap all of your emotions into a big bundle and call it "spiritual". You don't even understand what emotions are running through you, and thus little ability to control your emotions.
Yes, I do have disdain for the word "spiritual" But at least I do not call others nasty names. Shame on you.
Oh...Homer - so here is where I lose what little respect I may have held - these words:
“...and I'm not going to change how a perceive the art of that film because of a gnome's disdain for a particular word.”
Not “...and I’m not going to change because *good counter argument*” but because of David’s words (btw David, I love that the gnome is shitting and texting)...
Maybe your honesty lies in just the “I’m not going to change...” part
And, where did David’s “words” cause you such distress???? Ohhhh, a specific emotional response.... or, are all your emotional responses labeled “angry” except for the “good” ones, which aren’t you...
You do realize you are joining in disputing someone's subjective way they perceive a film that has absolutely nothing to do with belief, right?
You bet Homer... I am consciously aware of my actions and emotions BECAUSE they are mine.
You were asked by David to provide a real life example of something spiritual - you provided this:
“You want something I found spiritual? You ever see Gattaca? That was spiritual to me. The experience from that film welled emotion, spirit, passion and desire to be more than what reason and logic tells me I have to be.”
In what way are you defining “spiritual”????? I’ve mentioned and asked before -
Is it the “human spirit” as described in the film (both to succeed and “give up” - the other character committed suicide.
Was “reason and logic” left out? Nope. There was hard physical training and a realization that “we” (as in a human) are more than the sum of our parts (in this case, “genes”) or societal definition/limits... our main character used logic to outwit society (he was deceitful).
From anything you’ve shared about yourself, your idea of Gattaca isn’t the “main character’s self-accomplishment” ....or did you perceive through your filter “some invisible spirit thingy pushing and using the main character” ...I don’t know,
Maybe I missed the part when the main character prayed for some “mystery spirit juice”
Your subjective response doesn’t mean you are “wrong” but it also doesn’t close the door on my “subjective” response back to you.
What?? I'm saying I found the drive, the human spirit, the determination, the emotions that the character portrayed as a spiritual experience for me.
If I didn't believe in any deity, I would describe the work as spiritual just the same.
Look at the first line of Wikipedia for Human Spirit:
The human spirit is a component of human philosophy, psychology, art, and knowledge - the spiritual or mental part of humanity.
I'm not going anything supernatural here. And people can and do use "spiritual" all they wish in a very correct way and not mean anything supernatural at all.
"Look at the first line of Wikipedia for Human Spirit:"
I looked it up. The definition for "human spirit" and spirituality" are quite different. If you have initially stated "human spirit", I would have been in agreement with you.
Are you playing word games? Are you playing the "fruit" tactic again?
I won’t get into “word arguments” but the usage of spiritual is vague and is purposely so.
“I found that spiritual”. (Receiver inserts own meaning on word)
“I found that human spirit” (huh? Incomplete because it’s not define which quality of our “spirit” ie. enduring human spirit or hopeful human spirit)
I found that insightful. (Closer...what did you learn)
I found that depressing. (Why did it make you sad.
The “devil” is in the details. Think, man, think. If you had been the main character in that movie, you would not have achieved what that character did.
Isn't that a gnome?
I am not going to get dragged into a shitshow with you.
I recognize your attempt to change the subject.
Well you said I was name calling. I was trying to figure out what that was. I apologize for calling you a gnome.
Anyway, I also apologize for getting off subject. Let's return.
I've been looking at the concept of nonsupernatural spirituality and finding literally hundreds of references, here's one:
Or would you rather stick on how I found Gattaca spiritual and how I shouldnt be putting my emotional experiences of the film together and call it such?
"Or would you rather stick on how I found Gattaca spiritual and how I shouldnt be putting my emotional experiences of the film together and call it such?"
It is not my goal or business to tell other people what to do or think. I am in this forum to have healthy (and hopefully) dialogue so we learn from each other.
The point I was stressing is that yes, we experience emotions. And we can have multiple emotions raging through us. But as far as I know, that range of emotions have been catalogued, studied, and explained. We can also trigger emotions in others. So my opinion is that our emotions are generated internally by our bodies as a result of stimulus. Those emotions can be very very powerful. But the source of those emotions does not come from any "god" or whatever external supreme deity.
But I see too many theists fail by using the god of the gaps, not understanding what is happening, and attributing the experience to a god, or something divine.
The use of the word "spiritual" is one of confusion and imprecision by the originator. Instead of breaking down the different emotions, the sources, and effects, they only know they have powerful emotions and say "god did it".
As far as that piece of crap article by a fake atheist who basically attempted to attack and tear down atheism, here is my response.
Thanks David... good video
Interesting Feynman saying "very fundamental part of my soul is to doubt" after all the poo flung my way over describing and accepting things as "spiritual" in a non supernatural context.
I certainly have no issue with him using it though, just interesting.
I was raised with the understanding that humans are living souls - not that we have one ... “the soul that is sinning, it itself will die” ...”Adam became a living soul...”
(Ezekiel 18:20 and Gen 2:7)
Ever hear of “soul” music.
Homer - it’s guys like you that take the fun out of poetic language.
Or is that the type of “soul” you meant ...
Can we use the term “I am” or are you going to link that to your deity ideas?
I said I had no issue with Feynman using soul in what he was saying!
And yes I love soul music!!! I find it spiritual!!! Don't you?
...soul music rocks my very foundation- opens a primitive beat locked within my heart...
But that’s what you’d expect from the Devil’s music... ;)
...and unfortunately, many a scientist and atheist have to think about how a “word” maybe taken and added a “supernatural” meaning that in turn, “somehow” dismisses everything else said and presented.
Not you, specifically (maybe) - but these words get used “commonly” to represent “supernatural”
For example - “the thing you found interesting was his use of “soul” ...brain sifting and locking in on some form of “confirmation”
So what, again was your understanding of the word “soul”? And you keep using “human spirit” as the identifier for “spiritual” or other “spirit” words.
You can use these words however you like - whatever - but don’t act like there isn’t a “double meaning” behind them: or play down the fact that they are commonly used religiously and in religious doctrine
I'm not acting like there is isn't a double meaning. I clearly stated the meaning I was talking about from the get go when I started describing "spiritual" in my experience with a film. I said it was an example of the meaning without a God reference, multiple times.
There are indeed multiple meanings, that was the whole point I was trying to make!
My tastes in music are eclectic, there are very few genres I do not listen to. I listen to music whenever the opportunity presents itself. As I sit here and compose this post, I have my headphones on and am listening to Beethoven: Symphony No. 7 in A Major, Op. 92 - 2.
Later on today, I may be listening to AC/DC or Metallica.
But unfortunately Homer, I can break a song down technically and describe what passages do and why. For a lot of that stuff, I lean on one of my favorite YouTube broadcasters, Rick Beato.
In Feyman's video he lays out how he can appreciate in great detail the technical aspects of anything, and it does not subtract from the emotional experience. I know what is going on with the composition, why, and the effects is has.
Even I casually use the word "soul". But when challenged, I offer a precise definition of what I consider a "soul". You have not even come close to being precise and clear because of your evasion
Well help me out then! How do you describe spiritual and soul in terms that are non supernatural and I'll use them as a reference when I make my attempts to in the future. That way I won't be so evasive.
Oh for fuck’s sake, you enjoy playing the “stupid” card.
You figure it out dipshit. If you can’t- that’s your fucking problem and we’ll continue to call you out on it until a) you learn on your own or b) by your own choice you stop posting
No one has to spoon feed you anything...your “body” indicates that you are a “grown, adult” person - it’s up to you whether you want to start thinking like one.
Dip meaning to “immerse”
Shit “excrement” the digest food particles that together form unspecific waste (unless a scientist digs around”) that does not “inform” others what that individual person “ate” - in fact, will most likely drive others away by its repulsive smell (although the shitter usually likes his own smell)
Oh, and at least “shit” is tangeable - you have yet to qualify “spiritual” except as a vague emotion which is “unidentifiable”
Sounds like someone is getting a bit evasive here.
It must be ad hom Tuesday at the old AR.
Here Homer - let’s spoon feed you...
Read full meanings: all of it... now this part will take effort to “click”, wait for the “load” and then read all of the material (don’t skim, read it)
First, copy and paste this “ meaning of word spiritual “ into google ... you’ll get this
...”click” and also read “more definitions” and it will continue with a breakdown from the original origin as well as a link to “spirit”
Click “spirit” ... and you should get this ...