I am at the end of my patience. I was a Christian (Southern Baptist) for 30 years, and raised my children in the church. I left all religion about 10 years ago (I'm 64), and am quite content with my unbelief. However, my 33 year old divorced daughter and her 9 year old live with me. She is in school full time and has no income, so will be with me for at least another year. She is a strict Torah observant Christian, or Hebrew Roots Christian, or Messianic Jew. Whatever. In my home, she observes Sabbath and all the Jewish feasts and holidays. She listens to Christian and Hebrew Roots sermons ALL DAY. Every night I hear their Bible readings and prayers. The child has to observe these same rites, missing a lot of school, not being able to do anything with me on Saturday, etc. The brainwashing is hurting my heart. Sunday night (Rosh Hashana) she went through the house blowing the shofar like it had meaning for her.
I have to feign interest that the temple will soon be rebuilt and the storms prove we are in the end of days.
Since Saturday is a day of rest, no housework is done, so dishes pile up in the sink or are left wherever they were used. She lies around all day, which wouldn't bother me if it wasn't accompanied by the holier than thou attitude.
This evening she told me she wished her daughter could marry at puberty like in the old days, so she would remain pure.
Her husband (also Torah observant) divorced her over a year ago, but she will not date or give up on the marriage because Yahweh is going to reconcile them.
I don't know how I can deal with this another year, but there is no way she can move out any time soon. It is really causing tension in my home.
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Wow, best thing is to come here and vent in safety.
However, this is not advice but merely my take on the situation,
I would point out to her that the Sabbath applies to her and her alone. No one will wait on her and you do not have any non hebrew slaves that can do the tasks that were necessary in Hebrew houses when prayer etc was called for. So she is on her own with it. Suggest she confine herself to her room on those days as the house is yours.
If you want to go out or get takeaway, do so. Make no allowances, it is your home and somewhere you should feel comfortable.
It sounds hard, but trust me it is not, ignoring the entreaties, the cries of damnation can be greeted with a shrug. They do not last long when you make it plain that sabbath or no, it is YOUR home and THEY make the allowances. It might just help your granddaughter do some thinking before the inevitable parting of ways. Feisty grandmams (with secret hugs and treats are so the best)
I understand that you love your daughter and will shelter and protect her. But that does not mean she can walk all over you.
It is your house, and she can stay and live with you. But I strongly suggest you lay down the law, she can stay, but her faith must have zero impact on the household, and the child must attend all schooling. And if she has trouble figuring that out, that is her problem, not yours.
Your door is always open for her, but she must leave the religion outside of that door.
What you have to do is contact channel 7 and see if they will set up the cameras for a documentary. See if you can make some money out of the situation.
Okay, all flimsiness aside, your daughter is an ADULT. She is not a 16 year old. She lives in an ADULT world. She is in your house. You do not have to bend over backwards for her religious beliefs. If you are uncomfortable in your own home, something needs to change.
My guess is that you are letting her stay in your home because you are a good mother. (This is the problem) Get a dog if you want to be a good mother. At 64 your mother years are behind you. Go get one of those family albums that you have stuck in a closet and go through it. Remember when you were a good mother? Now you are a grandmother.
Grandmothers watch the children on the weekend. Bake cookies. Get visits on Christmas. They do not have to put up with the emotional and physical changes of a 16 year old irresponsible child that uses her religion to avoid dealing with people in the real world.
This really is very simple. She NEEDS YOU. You do not NEED HER. Lay down the law. SHE HAS TO GET ALONG WITH YOU. YOU DO NOT NEED TO GET ALONG WITH HER. You are not a bad person. You raised her. She got married. She ended her marriage. You are not responsible for the decisions she is making. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DECISIONS YOU ARE MAKING.
Decide to do something about the situation or decide not to do something about the situation. The choice is yours. Choosing not to decide is allowing the situation to continue the way it is. Once you make the decision it is yours to live with.
Good Luck.
@ Boltonoasis
Here is my best advice, My Fourth Commandment of Humanity.
Please notice it says you are to respect their right to their own beliefs. However, also notice it says nothing about respecting the beliefs.
Even I would never make any of my children homeless just because their beliefs differ from mine own. It would be absolutely heinous to say to your own children, "Your beliefs are offensive and intolerable to me, get the fuck out my house."
Yes. You may have run out of patience, but that is on YOU. Only YOU have the power to give a word, phrase, sentence, beliefs system the power to offend YOU. Because you give your daughter's beliefs the power to OFFEND YOU, is that grounds to kick her out onto the streets? C'mon dude. Quit acting like those intolerant Religious Absolutists.
If you ever become angry, do like I did (and still do with me brother) while me family was still alive. If I became angry, I would just shut the fuck up, and go to my retreat room. There I would cool off and relax, smoking one of my illegal Cuban cigars. Let the anger flow out of me. Me wife and daughters even learned when I stopped talking and walked out, that I was too angry to talk sensibly. I learned one thing, if you ever get that angry and continue to try discussing issues while that angry, eventually it WILL lead to physical violence. And that is one thing I have found intolerable. Allowing one's own anger to dictate one's own actions. Yes, it is perfectly OK to defend yourself against physical violence, but it is intolerable to allow your own anger to become senselessly violent to others, especially your family.
Trust me. I had to buy me brother's house so as to keep his 10 year old son from becoming homeless with him. Me brother is an intolerable Religious Absolutist. He despises the fact that I have been an atheist all my life and have been more successful than him, even after going through the nightmarish hell of losing mine own family. The first thing I said to him was, "You are NEVER to speak about your bullshit religious beliefs, except to answer your son, or I shall shut down your internet access." He relies heavily on the internet to play games on his Xbox. He can't work because there are no jobs available for "male mothers." And that is why I cannot save any money. However, I'll be damned if I SHALL BE "THE CAUSE" OF ME NEPHEW BECOMING HOMELESS! That would be so despicable, heinous, shitty, contemptible, degrading, disgraceful, disreputable, loathsome, reprehensible, shameful, vile, wretched, abjective, detestable, sordid, worthless, (need I go on?) action I could ever perform. And I would be the one worthy of a death sentence if I were to do that.
Just set the ground rules like me mom and I have. Although she has grown to tolerate my atheism, we have a rule where neither one of us will speak of anything religious or anti-religious. Set the same rule with your daughter. Her child should be given the "shadow of doubt" tolerance because at nine years of age, such children will not always remember the rule. They also tend to blurt things before realizing it violates the rule.
Then if you wish to discuss beliefs, do it in a calm way. If she is the one to get angry, then walk away. If you keep walking away when the discussion becomes "heated," she may eventually get the picture.
And lastly. If you are so intolerant of her beliefs, then pay for a place for her to live. Otherwise, you are going to have to figure out what it is about YOU that makes YOU so intolerant of your own child.
rmfr
Now to go back and read other posts...
Arakish - I'm not sure you and I are on the same page. I'm not even sure how to respond to your comment or why you seem so angry. I was very pleased to find a safe place to vent after a day of hearing about red heifers, the rebuilding of the temple, wanting my 9 year old granddaughter to marry at age 11 or 12 so she could focus her life on God and her husband and not on things of the world, fielding questions about how I could go from being a believer to not believing at all, frustration about constantly hearing that god will restore her marriage because he keeps his promises, answers prayers, and hates divorce.
I certainly can't afford to rent another home for her. I am already paying all of her bills since she came home after the divorce and started school full time. No alimony. No child support. (these are other stories). I do it for my granddaughter,
Actually, I was not angry. Just stating facts. What is it they say about the truth? It hurts like a <censored> <censored>!
Now of course that marriage at 11 or 12 is just pure retarded stupidity. That I agree on.
If my response sounded like I am angry at you, then I am man enough to apologize. I am sorry.
I was not angry at you. I was just speaking the truth. And I was also speaking it to me self because I needed to hear it also. We are kind of in the same boat, but not the same boat. Similar, but not exact.
It does sound to me like you just need to tell your daughter the same thing I said to me brother, "You are NEVER to speak about your religious beliefs, except to answer your daughter, or I shall <insert appropriate penalty>." Me brother has honored this because it was the very first thing I said to him after entering the house (his son was at his mother's for that weekend).
Again, I apologize if it seemed I was directing my anger at you. That was not my intention. I am sorry.
rmfr
@Boltonoasis
Well, I would really like to add a bit of advice of my own, but it appears that between Cog, Arakish, Dave, and Old Man all of the bases have been pretty well covered already. So, at this point, about all I can really say is that I do hope things work out for you and your daughter. Like everybody else has said, "Your house, your rules." But it is entirely up to you to set those rules and enforce them. Take care.
@ I certainly can't afford to rent another home for her. I am already paying all of her bills since she came home after the divorce and started school full time. No alimony. No child support. (these are other stories). I do it for my granddaughter,
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that this FULL GROWN WOMAN is still your responsibility. You are like a person hitting your head against a wall and then complaining about it to the doctor. "Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this! THEN STOP DOING IT or STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT IT. You are making a choice. You are responsible for the choice you make. All you are doing is playing victim.
If you are going to let her live with you - LAY DOWN THE FRIGGING LAW! If not, set a date that she must be out and tell her to GET HER SHIT TOGETHER. You are treating a GROWN WOMAN like a child and then pretending that you can't do anything about it. The saying that comes to mind is "SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT."
You have no sense of personal boundaries and your daughter knows this and is taking advantage of it. Decide what you are willing to put up with and what you will not tolerate. AND THEN PUT YOUR FRIGGING FOOT DOWN. You can help your daughter if you want but do it on your terms and not on hers. If she does not like it, pack her a lunch with the food you are paying for and draw her a map to the frigging front door. GET A SPINE! They may be transplanting them with new advancements in medical technology.
In my early 20's I was financially irresponsible. There were two occasions when I went to my parents and got them to co-sign loans to alleviate my debt. On the third attempt, my father turned me down. Of course, at that moment I was confused and hurt, how could my own parents abandon me?
A few years later I finally figured it out. They were forcing me to face up to my personal problems and solve them myself, instead of passing them on to others. It was one of the best things my father did as a responsible parent, and I thanked him any times over in later years.
More eloquently than me sir. I had no father and left home at 16. Nothing helps you get over you teenage shit and grow the hell up like the school of hard knocks and a can of Campbell's soup over half a baked potato for dinner and then wondering where your next meal is going to come from.
@ Cog
Similar, I ran away at 14, as far as I could from "home" and boarding school in the UK..all the way to Australia...fortunately we lived in a Migrant Hostel where the Italians, Greeks and Macedonians and other assorted migrants were disgusted at the kind of food served in the "British Mess" and ensured us a steady supply of exotics foods the like of which I had never heard of never mind seen before!
I was afraid to leave my hometown even after getting a car. If anything ever happened to me I would not have the money to get me out of the problem. (Then, someplace during my university years I went insane.) I began traveling and have never stopped. Living out of a suitcase is easy for someone who really had very little growing up. Food? He he he .... if you can cook it and season it, I will eat it. (Raccoon, Dog, Horse, Goat, Sea slugs, Raw squid and octopus, sea urchins, bugs of all kinds, cow blood soup, pig intestine, cow stomach, pig nose - shredded and seasoned, humus, .... Generally if people in a given culture can eat it.... so can I. Yea I may not like some things at first but taste is acquired. I think I might have even tried some of those exotic foods...... Ha ha ha.... I have a jar of that smelly black yeast crap the Brits and Auzzies smear on toast. What's it called? Mar-mite, Termite, Veggie-mite, yea.... mite make you puke. Ha ha ha ...... Actually, knowing how to eat it is everything. Just a dab on toast with a good helping of butter and the stuff is quite good. I even learned to like it and have my own jar.
Family dynamics can be so tough. You love her and want to support her, but also want to pull your hair out. As someone who comes from a very vocal fundamentalist Christian family, I feel for you!
Though you can't get rid of the heartache of seeing her extreme beliefs, can you have a straight conversation with her about what does and doesn't work for you? Could you sit her down, let her know you love her and want to support her, but that you're struggling with the way things are currently going and want to work out some boundaries that would work for both of you? It doesn't seem like too much to ask that you not be a person she talks to about her religious convictions. She has her church community for that. Could she and her daughter listen to their Christian music and sermons with headphones? Or at a low volume in another room with the door closed? You could remind her that you don't have Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins (or whomever you fancy) lectures playing throughout the house and that you'd appreciate the same respect. Could they use paper plates and cups on the Sabbath so that the mess doesn't impact you?
Wishing you the best in navigating a sticky situation!
Boltonoasis,
It seems that you're between a rock and a hard place. At 64 you only have a few good years left before you start to crap out. You have an irresponsible daughter who is currently incapable of taking care of herself and her own child. Her religion is driving you nuts but you're still hoping that she will get her stuff together before you need to count on her.
If you get tough with her how will that affect your future? Do you think you will be able to cope as you get older and more frail without her assistance? I know older people who live by themselves but they do have a few friends who provide some company and assistance. You have to examine your own situation because right now it seems that you have a loser on your hands. I assume that your daughter is your sole heir in your will. Since she wants to be Old Testament remind her of the penalty for disobeying her parent =http://www.bricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_stone_your_children/dt21_1... 6 pictures
I don't consider a young single mother in an unfortunate situation a loser. She is in school full time, at my urging, to learn a skill that will support her and her daughter. The sperm donor is nowhere to be found, and her recent divorce is from a fellow Messianic Jew who was emotionally abusive, so I convinced her to leave him and come home. So she left Tennessee and moved to Utah, where there is NO community of like-minded people for her to associate with. Her daughter has not been able to be in the same school for more than one grade because of mom's circumstances (losing a job, moving cross-country to make a fresh start, moving into new husband's home, moving cross-country again after the divorce), so I think it is important for the child to have some stability, as well as her mother to finish her schooling and get a job so they can move. She doesn't want to be in my home any more than I want her here, but it is what it is for now.
I appreciate everyone's input. Parenting is difficult. I DO have a problem with confrontation so will deal with discomfort more than someone else might. But I will not throw my daughter and granddaughter to the streets. I only wanted to use this site to vent. You have shown me what I already know - it is MY house and I should be able to make the rules. But I have always shied away from conflict. One of you accused me of playing the victim. I have to think about that one. I was raised in a southern household where girls were not to speak out or have a voice, and I married a narcissist, which further quieted me, and I spent 30 years in a Southern Baptist church where wives are submissive and we consider others as better than ourselves (Philippians 2:3) so it's something I definitely need to work on.
@Boltonoasis
Quite a tough situation you got yourself there, and I do not blame you for wanting to vent here.
I understand wanting to avoid confrontation, I avoid confrontation when it is reasonable to do so myself. I however do set boundaries, and it fair to do so, you are providing a home for your daughter and granddaughter, setting up reasonable boundaries is fair.
I am guessing you, as a mother that loves her daughter, accepted her into your home again without stating any conditions, leaving them unsaid. I again do not blame you however it does open you up to a tougher path of conflict resolution. Some, reasonable, confrontation may be necessary or you may be increasingly subject to being a doormat to your daughter. I doubt your daughter does this maliciously, I also think it is likely your daughter is not even fully aware of the conflict it creates for you.
I think some things can be done to make things better, simple things like: Perhaps sunday-Friday she takes care of dishes and other chores, at least to a 2/3 representative, but you take care of things on Saturday.
The child missing school due to mother observing religious rites is a thornier and not so easily solved dilema. If she is missing enough days that can really put your grand daughter behind in school, let alone the damage of the daughter's ability to make friends. Since your daughter is in school as well and does not hold down a job, she is able to "watch" her daughter on days she takes her out of school, she does not need a daycare. If she has this much free time to observe her very busy religious schedule for her and her daughter perhaps she is not studying all that hard while getting free room and board from you. Maybe encourage her to double up on school course load or take on a part time job and help pay the bills, and when she does so, and contributes to household costs, she can have more say on what she can and cannot do around the house.
She may not purposely be doing it, but she is taking advantage of your love and caring for her. You are providing her shelter, (I would too for my own kid trying to get a better life and go back to school!) but it does not mean she gets to do whatever she wants. Your house, your rules, while she contributes little to nothing in the cost and maintenance of the house, you at the very least get to decide the rules. If she doesn't like it, she is likely a capable adult, she can always pick up a job or two while doing school and live in a tiny studio somewhere else.
Naturally I can imagine a fear of yours is she will go back to her abusive husband, while again likely non intentional, this is a sort of blackmail against you. Is your daughter's ex still single and would accept her back? If no, nothing to worry about, if yes, perhaps point out to your daughter how pathetic that guy is, that he waits around for year(s) hoping an ex wife will forgive him and move back.
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@ Boltonoasis
Exactly, you must be quiet, assertive and FIRM.You know how manipulative narcissists are, you know how you react to confrontation. Learn from that. State you rules clearly and calmly. Do not respond to anything else but calm responses. If she walks out, resume when she returns. A few days/hours discomfort will pay dividends once your daughter realises your are immovable on this. It will be a valuable lesson for your granddaughter as well, to see how adults resolve things...
Do not fall for blackmail or bullying. Say what you want. Ensure you get what you want. Repeat the mantra "My home my rules" You are doing a great thing for both of them, remember you are entitled to ask for some respect in return.