I am looking for some feedback about dealing with an evangelical friends. We have been friends (in spite of some disagreements) for years. We have kids who are two weeks apart. She is a staunch evangelical Christian. Her daughter, who is now 20, recently moved in with her boyfriend. My friend is furious with me because when her daughter asked me (on facebook chat) if I thought a person would go to hell for having premarital sex, I said “no”. My friend thinks I should have lied to her daughter because “I know it is what she believes” and somehow I was supposed to know that her daughter was planning on moving in with her boyfriend. Her daughter has also come out to me as an atheist and as bisexual, but actually does not realize that I am one (atheist, not bixesual). I don’t know if I should tell her daughter that I am also an atheist, or if I should keep my mouth shut. Any advice?
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Seems to me that it very much depends on your relationship with the young lady's mother. How much do you value that friendship?
Which is more important to you, your friendship with her or your relationship with the daughter? Your call, Mostdays.
Thanks you for responding. I have been friends with the mother for years, but the daughter is really struggling, so I am leaning toward disclosing to the daughter. I feel like this may be, in the long run, the best thing I can also do for my friend, to help her daughter. But I know my friend will consider this a real, ultimate betrayal, as she will then think I have contributed to sending her daughter to hell. And I know if I believed a friend had done anything that would send my kid to eternal torture I would never forgive them. I value the friendship, she is a good person when religion does not cloud her judgment, but maybe the best thing I can do for her now is to help her daughter. It is hard.
Just an idea, and you may not agree - but like I said, it's your call. In my view, it's never a good idea to do anything to break up family ties, irrespective of what your own views and feeling are. Right-wing evangelistic Christians would have no problem at all with that, but I would. And that's mostly because I have a good deal of experience of life and don't let zealous beliefs cloud my judgement.
This friend expects you to lie to their adult child for them? I wouldn't.
Seriously. You are expected to lie to support your friend's theist dogma? What a crock of shit. F that idea... sideways
Yes, she expects me to not admit to atheism. Her daughter previously has been left with the idea that I am "spiritual" but not religious (that is pretty much what my friend told her daughter). She thinks it will be confusing to her daughter if her daughter knows I am an atheist and am (and not kidding here) "a good person". I have known her daughter since grade school, and have avoided discussing religion with her. However, my daughter (who is an ardent and vocal atheist) thinks that she knows I am an atheist (I just found this out today) and she has been texting with her about atheism. So it may be a moot point. Maybe even why she brought it up with me. These responses have helped me think about this. Her daughter is now an adult, and I guess my obligation to avoid the topic has probably ended.
IMO, you didn't have any obligation to start with unless you made a promise or something.
Personally, I won't lie to a child; but I'll refrain from going on a huge rant about how dangerous and counter-productive I think it is.
Honesty these days seems to require a measure of courageousness from people who no longer hold it as a virtue, when challenged with the possibility of busting a social faux pas, and instead they damned near shut down entirely. Fair statement or do I need a citation - aimed at this general audience - to make such a public observation?
Tell her. If society hasn't already wounded her for her sexual persuasion(s) from one direction it will most certainly bushwhack her from the religious direction. Young people of all stripes suffer that and get into life without the giddy comfort of being seen as normal. Give her a boost.
I did make a promise not to talk about religion (or lack thereof) with her daughter when she was young. It was the only way she would allow her child in my house. My daughter just informed me that her daughter does already know I am an atheist from discussing it with her. I will be talking to her daughter about it, I suppose since I have already had the sex talk with her, I am not sinning too much more to be discussing atheism. Frankly, I am not sure the daughter is not just rebelling against the insane religious evangelical dogma that she has been pressured to accept. I thought about it a great deal, and even more with the feedback here, and I think the best thing I can do for my friend is try to help her daughter with the issues she is facing.
Hi, Mostdays. It's difficult to guess right when it comes to ethics, but considering the young woman's interest, her struggle, you should be open to her, 'though I would let her know you're breaking a promise to her mum, so she can understand that your friendship is at stake. Let me put it this way: Would you keep quiet if you were a lesbian watching a young woman's struggle with same-gender sexuality issues because of a promise?
I did not read through all replies so forgive me if I repeat myself.
Definitely tell the daughter you are atheist. She could probably really use the support, advice, and an alternate opinion from someone she obviously on some level respects.
Probably not actually needed, but: a chat about keeping your and her atheism close to the vest is probably needed. Unless you and that daughter are prepared to deal with the battles ahead with that girls family.
You would be putting yourself in the middle of a major disagreement between daughter and her family. You do not want that typically. Show her strong support, but try to avoid ending up in the middle. The disagreement is between that girl and her family.
If the girl is struggling with her thoughts towards atheism, point her to resources that can help. This website is full of them. And is a good place to start. There are many threads here on tools, groups etc that atheist can use. Her fears of coming out as bisexual is also strongly related to religion, and her family's belief system. She is also of that age where leaving the nest and making her own life is quite normal. I see nothing wrong with a 20 year old moving out of the home to live with her boyfriend.
When I was in my twenties (a very, very long time ago) there were only 2 adult women I trusted. Both of them were very good friends with my Mom. I trusted these women completely and I knew, even though they were not my friends, they would not betray me or lie to me or tell my Mom what we discussed.
When I did come out as a Lesbian my Mom freaked and told both those women she had thrown me out of the house. They both wanted to know why. What did I do? Rob a bank? Kill someone? What could I have possibly have done that was so bad I'd be banned from the family?
When she told them I was a Lesbian both of them breathed a sigh of relief. One of them said, "That's it? That's the reason you kicked her out of the family? You're kidding, right?" The other one said, "You mean you didn't know? How could not have known that?"
I don't know the young woman you're talking about but I believe, from what you've said, she's reaching out to a sane and trustworthy adult that she feels safe and confident talking with about these things.
I always get a kick out of good Christian folk that convince themselves their god is okay with them lying, deceiving, and cheating. I've always said Christianity is the best religion ever! You can do anything you want, behave however you want. Deceive, lie, cheat, steal, betray, even murder somebody if you get the urge. All you have to do is ask to be forgiven and "presto" you're good! Going to heaven instead of hell. If there's a better religion out there I'd like to know about it. lol.
I don't know if this will help, but I just came across a very good life maxim, and I'd like to share it with you all anyway:
"The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek"
This difficult position you are in because of fear of social consequences from your friend is exactly the reason that keeps many atheists hidden, and unable to get or give the support they need. Her mother is using her influence over you (and others probably) to isolate her. This is what my mother did to my brother when he strayed from our religion and wanted to marry a girl from another religion. She pressured our entire extended family to shun him, and she raised hell at one of our cousins who didn't comply. My mother sabotaged his relationship with vile behavior towards the girlfriend and her parents and she basically sucked out all the happiness they had. After it ended, my brother was seriously depressed and isolated. That cousin may have saved my brother's life by being in it.
You might want to stay out of it and let the daughter find her own way. Your conscience wants to help, but there is a terrible cost. If you choose to help her, you should understand that you will only be helping the daughter, and not indirectly helping the mother by keeping her daughter emotionally healthy. That often doesn't count in the theist's good books. But think about who she will feel safe to turn to for support if her relationship doesn't work out.