Are there other options than God?

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Sheldon's picture
"Hi Algebe, is fliching

"Hi Algebe, is fliching something wrong? "

Wtf is fliching? Dear oh dear you mean filching, and define wrong. You really are all together too stupid to bother with. Luckily the mods have saved your blushes.

It always astounds me that theists seem arrogantly proud of the fact they can't decide for themselves that things like rape and murder are wrong, but need to be told not to do it by an ancient book. Only a particularly shitty human being would need to be told that rape, and murder are wrong.

Talyyn's picture
@JiMm

@JiMm

I have not read your three last posts because they are too long. I've read them on diagonal.

If the premise of an argument is false, then the argument is not true. You cannot escape this by saying you don't have to prove the premise.

basically, you're saying that because we have an innate sense of morality, there is an higher power, a god and that it is the Christian one.

Finally, I repeat the list I have give you of objectives values by christians. I correct myself, some of these are more ideologies:

Patriarchy
Conservatism
Nihilism
Blaming the victims
End of History with one third of Humanity being killed during the Apocalypse. (chapter of Revelation in the Bible)

Talyyn's picture
I think the title of the

I think the title of the thread is misleading. JimM have not come here with a open-mind about the possibility of alternatives to god, such as "no god" or something completly different altogether. He is just preaching.

Sheldon's picture
Jim M, you are preaching, and

Jim M, you are preaching, and I can't speak for anyone else but I intensely dislike being preached to. Make cogent salient arguments, and be concise, I won't bother reading your overly verbose sermons.

Your subjective belief that your religious beliefs provide objective morality is itself a subjective claim. You will need to demonstrate objective evidence that your deity exists, that you know what it wants, and of course that what it wants is objectively moral. Otherwise your morals are no more objective than mine or anyone else's. I can at least defend my morals with reason, and empathy because they are based on the premise we should try as far as is possible to eradicate suffering of all humans, and to a lesser extent all other conscious animals. I don't try and pretend my morals are granted divine authority as this is meaningless to me, and am happy to listen to the moral arguments of others, but will dismiss out of hand the idea the morals are superior because the person offering them makes the subjective claim they are divine diktat.

Talyyn's picture
Does the morality emanating

Does the morality emanating from his god itself is subjective?

Nyarlathotep's picture
All that text and you still

All that text and we still don't have a list of objective moral values. You'd think anyone who was sure they existed could easily post a list.

Sheldon's picture
If they could offer one

If they could offer one example it'd be progress. One objectively moral action behaviour or idea that no atheist could achieve or secular reason could justify.

CyberLN's picture
JimM, I’m going to ask you a

JimM, I’m going to ask you a question but will start first by requesting that you employ brevity if you choose to answer it. I have not, and will not, read a diatribe.

You wrote, “So when we say that objective moral values exist, we mean that a statement like, “Murder is evil,” ...”

Define murder.

xenoview's picture
JimM

JimM
Where do you get your morals from? Is it from your god? If they come from your God, then they are subjective.

Edit

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
It is staggering to me that

Just going back to the OP and the reply to an initial response regarding evidence.

It is staggering to me that the wanting of evidence to confirm the validity of a deity is met with such distain from those of a theistic inclination.

If someone came to your church, say, the pope or whoever is a powerful figure head..
and they told you that God has commanded you all to jump off the highest building in the land and that you will survive, would you do it? A critical or perhaps an atheistic mind would tell that person to go fourth and multiply!

Why? Because we know what will actually happen.

Evidence, Reason, Logic.. These are not limited to atheism, but they are the cornerstone of atheistic thinking.

Cognostic's picture
@ "Just imagine for a second

@ "Just imagine for a second if God did reveal Himself? What would you do lol?"
Gee, How about calling him out for the murdering butchering SOB he is. If you met Hitler would you shake his hand, pat him on the back, and tell him what a good job he is doing. Your GOD is an ass/ Even if he does exist he is not worth worshiping.

Sapporo's picture
Regarding the OP: By no means

Regarding the OP: By no means does a lack of belief in gods mean you should revert to pessimism.

David Killens's picture
@Great hope

@Great hope

"I believe that most of us want to know God"

Nope. I have no interest in imaginary creatures.

Great hope's picture
Hi David : ) I've been

Hi David : ) I've been wondering where you've been? I don't have interest in imaginay creatures either. Even though it would be cool to see RoboCop riding on a unicorn.

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Great hope's picture
Ok so I really do think my

Ok so I really do think my time is wasted here. I'm an all the way there kind of guy. So I just shoot it all the way there. Nitpicking every last detail is exausting. Most people do experience God. Athiesm is the minority. Not saying that's a good or bad thing. I'm just saying that's what it is. If you're basing your experience with God on someone else's experience. Then no wonder you got hung up on evidence. If you have the courage and strength to seek your own experience and let go of everything coming between\blocking you and God, as you grow in knowledge of the gifts God will give you, like new sight and a melting heart. You will get your precious evidence. "Faith without works is dead". It's way more simple than we complicate it to be. But if you're not going to give this a full honest effort, for as long as it takes. Then there is nothing left for me to say. I hope you all have the best most lucky lives and nothing interrupts it in a way you don't like and you get to retire in a tropical paradise and go into "The Great Unknown" in peace. I love you all. Especially the old man who watches cartoons ; ) I hope I'll see you on the other side.

Time will tell

Great Hope

Sapporo's picture
@Great hope

@Great hope
In my view, the onus is on any being who knows it exists to make a connection with me, not the other way round, especially considering that I only have a finite amount of energy.

To some extent I agree with the adage "You make your own luck": If I wish to live an enjoyable life, I should do everything in my power to bring that about. Wasting time on things for which there is zero evidence for would not help me with that.

I keep detecting a fatalistic tone in your posts. If you believe "God" gives your life meaning, then I certainly don't advise that you abandon "God" - but I would suggest that you explore what precisely it is about your beliefs that gives your life meaning.

For me, living life in a way that is enjoyable and in a way that is defined by my choices is what gives me meaning. That may seem very general, and that is exactly my intent. The combination of what precisely makes my life enjoyable and what my choices are, are specific to me, even though I don't think they'd be especially alien to anyone or are especially complex. I think it is harmful to happiness to think that truths cannot be simple and that must somehow be obscure and hard to find or achieve.

Great hope's picture
@Sapporo

@Sapporo
I really like you. You have such a kind spirit and your empathy is much appreciated. You speak in a way that is so calm and collected. I would much like to have some coffee with you. I have found much to live for and most people say I'm the happiest person they've ever met. But I'm also on the front lines of hope. Helping homeless people and healing hands human trafficking and slavery. Also at work I have all sorts of people who I look to help in all kinds of ways. And for some strange reason I've been coming here and I don't know why. I constantly live with a broken heart for others and my love is through the roof. I heard a funny saying once. "Do you know why you should always go the second mile??? Because it's never crowded" hahahaha I fell on the ground laughing when I heard that one. Even Mother Teresa said "I know God won't give me more than I can handle, but I sure wish he wouldn't trust me so much." It really takes a toll. One I'm happy to be able to give. But after so many encounters with death, it has really shown me the gravity of the reality. Also the promise of home, is something that sounds so good that it brings me to tears. So I give my all to seek The Creator and Giver of Life. It literally is the simplest most logical thing to do. But it just takes a lot of effort, so it's not the easiest road. Otherwise everyone would be doing it. It's simple but not easy. But it sure is worth it. And "God's retirement plan is out of this world" lol. To be honest I made it a lot harder than it had to be. But by the grace I've made it and I'm ready at every moment. Life is so fragile and fleeting. And if you look around? It seems to be getting worse at a faster rate. It's only a matter of time. 3 out of 10 people can't even get clean water. And we use the "science god" to make stuff like this. Watch "Palm Sized Flying Killer Robots a.k.a Slaughterbots" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/2yhtnVJSc9M

This is just the tip of the iceberg that they let us know about. And we all know what icebergs do. They sink ships. Human history is so messed up. And they're going to add another chapter. Worse than before. But, fast forward to the ending. When it's all over? Who has the possibility of home? Not them. Like I said I'm an all the way there kind of guy. I like to play the tape all the way through. ; )

Thank you again Sapporo

GH

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Algebe's picture
@Great Hope: And if you look

@Great Hope: And if you look around? It seems to be getting worse at a faster rate.

Bullshit. Things are getting better all the time. Poverty has been dramatically reduced over the last couple of decades. Violence of all kinds, especially war, is at its lowest level in human history. Smallpox has been eradicated, and other diseases will follow. Polio would also have been gone forever except for the actions of murderous religious whackos in Nigeria.

For a few bucks, we can buy little devices that let us access knowledge and talk to people anywhere in the world. The walls that we used to throw rocks over are coming down.

The media continues to sell advertising by frightening us with all kinds of bad news, but the reality is continual improvement.

There are challenges, to be sure, but our technology is advancing exponentially, and those challenges will be overcome. They will be overcome unless we collectively get down on our knees, shut our eyes, and bleat to god for divine intervention.

Sapporo's picture
@Great hope

@Great hope
I find that people do not need an excuse to do good.

While I don't believe that god exists, I have no reason to believe that god would be malicious if it did exist. And even if god was malicious, it would not change my view of what I consider "good". If god knows me, and thinks it would benefit me to know it, then it should introduce itself. I do not know god, and do not feel the onus is on me to introduce myself. I cannot introduce myself to an individual that I do not consider as someone who possible exists.

Algebe's picture
@Great Hope: But if you're

@Great Hope: But if you're not going to give this a full honest effort, for as long as it takes.

And so you assume the persona of a teacher disappointed in the lack of effort by his lazy and rebellious students. How utterly arrogant.

Every atheist here has tackled the big questions about god and faith and the position of humanity in the universe with greater courage and strength than any churchful of god-ridden faith zombies, the more so because we've swum against the flow instead of drifting with it. Stop preaching and start thinking. Get up off your knees and stand up straight like a homo sapiens.

I have a "melting heart". What I don't have is a melting brain.

Sheldon's picture
" Nitpicking every last

" Nitpicking every last detail is exausting (sic)."

That's hilarious, you've not scrutinised your belief or claims at all, and given nothing but the usual theistic cliches, broad sweeping unevidenced claims. Nitpicking indeed, objective evidence is a minimum requirement for any rational belief.
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"Most people do experience God."

No they don't, they just make this unevidenced claim.
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"Athiesm (sic) is the minority."

Argumentum ad populum fallacy, a bare appeal to numbers.
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"If you're basing your experience with God on someone else's experience. Then no wonder you got hung up on evidence."

This is not about perception, it's about theists lowering the bar for belief in a particular deity because they want it to be true.
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" If you have the courage and strength to seek your own experience and let go of everything coming between\blocking you and God, as you grow in knowledge of the gifts God will give you, like new sight and a melting heart. "

That's gibberish sorry. You either care that what you believe is true or you do not, and you clearly are biased, and don't submit your belief to any objective scrutiny. What you're talking about here is what all theists claim, making yourself suggestible, then pretending this gives an esoteric insight into something profound. Anyone could do this about literally any belief, it tells us nothing about the validity of the belief, and all theists make such claims.
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" It's way more simple than we complicate it to be. But if you're not going to give this a full honest effort, for as long as it takes. Then there is nothing left for me to say. "

I can't speak for other atheists but I don't validate claims or beliefs by spending enormous amounts of effort and time pretending "a priori" that they are true so i become suggestible and indoctrinate myself. Either there is an appropriate amount of objective evidence for a claim or belief or there is not, and so far not one theist can offer "ANY" objective evidence for a deity.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
Most people do experience God

Most people do experience God

I'm actually going to be bold here and leave this to Breezy (I believe he studies in cognative fields), what is more likely:
a) you have an experience of God (a being that cannot be evidenced, isn't testable and doesn't conform to the laws of nature)
or
b) your mind has made a mistake (be that, it has had a track played upon it, mental weakness, yearning for hope, sense of community and so fourth).

I accept fully that there are likely many sensible and fine reasons why people believe, yet nothing means that this belief is correct in that a God actually exists.

We have grown as a species and if we could live in a world where the various religious sects had no power, I would wager that the number of believers would be far smaller.

Belief is compounded by punishment, be that in countries that physically punish you for disbelief (even killing a non believer), to threats of eternity in hell, the list is endless.

Great hope's picture
I've always liked math so

I've always liked math so here's a simple equation. We don't know what happens when we die. The number one source in the world tells us what happens. There is no source that validates authority in nothingness and no master placer. One has possibilities and hope. The other does not. One has massive consequences. The other does not. If you are wrong about one, nothing changes. If you are wrong about the other, Everything Changes. We won't know until the allocated time. But we will definitely find out. "True logic would favor the greater, regardless of how you feel about it"

Algebe's picture
@Great Hope: If you are

@Great Hope: If you are wrong about one, nothing changes. If you are wrong about the other, Everything Changes.

Fool. Don't you know that Pascal's wager only works if god's an idiot?

Great hope's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe
There is your crux. If God really spoke this all into existence and gave us life. It would have a far greater understanding than you or I or anything. We can call it an idiot all day long. But God is the definition of power. Your wisdom is fleeting to have such a limited perspective. Have you thought that one through?

Algebe's picture
@Great Hope: Have you thought

@Great Hope: Have you thought that one through?

Have you? Look up Pascal's wager. That's what you suggested. And it only works if your god is stupid enough to be deceived by people pretending to believe, or crooked enough to prefer feigned belief over honest doubt.

Great hope's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe
I've not looked into it. I don't care to. Im talking about God not Pascal. I've been speaking in principals. That's all.

Algebe's picture
@Great Hope:

@Great Hope:

Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise, right?

Pascal's wager:
You don't know whether there is a god or not.
If you believe and there is a god, you go to heaven. If you believe and there's no god, nothing happens.
If you disbelieve and there's a god, you go to hell. If you disbelieve and there's no god, nothing happens.

So belief offers infinite gains and no downside. Disbelief could bring infinite loss.

Do you see any flaws in this logic?

Sheldon's picture
Wow you have parroted just

Wow you have parroted just every theistic cliche there is, and now Pascal's wager as well. The rest of your post is yet another long tedious list of unevidenced claims. You're just preaching a sermon at us, and apart from how tedious that is, it is very condescending. I also see no maths in your posts whatsoever. which is bizarre given your opening sentence?
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"We don't know what happens when we die."

"But we will definitely find out. "

Why can't theists see the hilarity of such contradictions? If you don't know then it is asinine to then immediately claim you know there is something to find out.
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""True logic would favor the greater, regardless of how you feel about it""

I've seen the word logic abused by theists a lot since I've been on here, but that's one of the worst. Logic dictates that the greater claim carries the burden of proof, and you are making a claim that humans survive their own physical death. Yet not only can't demonstrate any evidence to support your claim, you actually scoff at the very idea that evidence is necessary. Nothing about that is logical. What's more Pascal's wager is woeful, and has been thoroughly debunked, if you bothered to do even some cursory research you'd know this. It claims an omniscient omnipotent deity can be fooled by humans pretending they believe in it, it's asinine.

"The number one source in the world tells us what happens."

Wow, a source you can demonstrate no evidence even exists, try again.

Sapporo's picture
Great hope: I've always liked

Great hope: I've always liked math so here's a simple equation. We don't know what happens when we die. The number one source in the world tells us what happens. There is no source that validates authority in nothingness and no master placer. One has possibilities and hope. The other does not. One has massive consequences. The other does not. If you are wrong about one, nothing changes. If you are wrong about the other, Everything Changes. We won't know until the allocated time. But we will definitely find out. "True logic would favor the greater, regardless of how you feel about it"

The problem with a hypothetical scenario is that the exact opposite could also be true - i.e. believing in god may result in an eternity in hell.

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