The Bible Experiment And Thoughts...

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Sheldon's picture
Orwell was a genius, and this

Orwell was a genius, and this is most evidenced in that his imagination both transcended the epoch in which he lived, and accurately & objectively summed it up. Orwell denounced Stalinism, and totalitarianism, and did it because he was a Socialist and a secularist, and seeing Stalinism destroy both ideals was more than he could bear in silence.

The world is a richer place because of it / him..."Orwell portrays as one example of how the elite class abuses language to control the lower classes. Although the slogan seems to help the animals achieve their goal at first, enabling them to clarify in their minds the principles that they support, it soon becomes a meaningless sound bleated by the sheep (“two legs baa-d”), serving no purpose other than to drown out dissenting opinion. By the end of the novel, as the propagandist needs of the leadership change, the pigs alter the chant to the similar-sounding but completely antithetical “Four legs good, two legs better.”

Animal Farm is heart breaking, but 1984 is terrifying. What a species we are...

Nyarlathotep's picture
I have a first (US) edition

I have a first (US) edition 1984 and Animal Farm. Although I like his non-fiction even more; I recommend:

arakish's picture
Nyar, Oh hell yeah! Orwell's

Nyar, Oh hell yeah! Orwell's non-fiction is fabulous. Just as good as his fiction.

rmfr

Apollo's picture
fine. Now if you can grasp

fine. Now if you can grasp that it is a collection of stories expressing a perspective that will be something. If you insist on treating it as a science book, that will be sad.

I suppose it is possible you do recognized it as stories, and not science. In that case it is possible you are not critiqing the Bible, rather, what mixed up fundamentalists have tried to make of it. The Bible is not a science book so it can't be critiqued on that basis. It is not a rational book, so it can't be critiqued on that basis either.

The fact that the Bible is not a rational book, nor a science book does not mean God does not exist.

Randomhero1982's picture
The fact that Harry Potter is

The fact that Harry Potter is not a rational book, nor a science book does not mean Voldermort does not exist.

Apollo's picture
If your are trying to imply

If your are trying to imply that since the Bible is not rational, nor a science book, nor a history book, then Jerusalem doesn't exist....you would be using the same flawed reaosning as the Fundys.

LogicFTW's picture
@Apollo

@Apollo
No where did randomhero1982 say: "..then Jerusalem doesn't exist."

The first time the word Jerusalem, (or any word starting with the letters: jeru,) was written in this entire thread is your use just above.

So I do not think randomhero1982 was implying that at all.

 
 

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Randomhero1982's picture
Pmsl, what a load of bollocks

Pmsl, what a load of bollocks!

If your are trying to imply that since the Bible is not rational, nor a science book, nor a history book, then Jerusalem doesn't exist....you would be using the same flawed reaosning as the Fundys.

You're the one who claimed in your previous post that the bible wasn't a science book, nor a rational book, you absolute weapon.

Where did I make any of those claims?
Where did I say Jerusalem doesn't exist?

A classic straw man fallacy.

But to go back to the Harry Potter analogy, as that's likely more your pace... it too mentions locations...

Kings Cross?

Kings Cross is real, isn't it? Doesn't mean the fucking book or it's characters are?

Utter, utter, utter bollocks!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Apollo

@Apollo

So the whole damn thing is fantasy? The resurrection is a fable, the virgin birth just a story, genesis a metaphor for...something? Then what the fuck do you base your version of christianity on pray tell?

The whole lot of bible texts are naught but the imaginations of men writ large in recent history...so there is no need to believe any part of it, the Qu'ran and the gods mentioned therein are just motes of fairy dust?

Looks like we can agree on that then.

Cognostic's picture
Alice in Wonderland. An

Alice in Wonderland. An adult story written for kids and every bit as wonderful as books like Animal Farm. Alice in Wonderland is an amazing book full of psychological insights, satire and hidden meaning as it tells the story of a young girl growing into womanhood.

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” The author of a popular book stole this line.
https://www.amazon.com/Six-Impossible-Things-Before-Breakfast/dp/0393332039

"I wonder if I've been changed in the night. Let me think. Was I the same when I got up this morning? I almost think I can remember feeling a little different. But if I'm not the same, the next question is 'Who in the world am I?' Ah, that's the great puzzle!"

Randomhero1982's picture
I have found it remarkable in

I have found it remarkable in one way and one way only... and that is, IF I was a believer I'd probably be ostracized for asking far too many questions!

Apollo's picture
You'd possibly be osctracized

You'd possibly be osctracized by fundamentalist theists because that's who you are addressing your comments and questions to. They are mixed up and mostly uneducated so you won't get much traction with them. After you have dispensed with the uneducated easy fundamentalist targets you might address theists of a different sort. Lots of theists change their view of the Bible as they grow, while others, such as the fundamentalists, don't grow. By always picking on the ones who don't grow, atheists limit their own growth.

Athiests could grow too.

arakish's picture
Apollo: "Atheists could grow

Apollo: "Atheists could grow too.

Only if they stay away from religious horse hoowhee.

rmfr

Apollo's picture
To the best of my knowledge

To the best of my knowledge you folks don't have an athiest thinker/writer who can help you develope your critical thinking skills. Staying away from religious horse hoowhee does not guarantee the results you think it does. It can just get you mired in some other type of horse hoowhee.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that as long as you are not into some religious horse hoowhee, everything you believe is absolutely ture. I don't buy that for a minute. There are lots of atheist myths that you guys swallow wholesale with out thinking.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy's picture
I agree with this thought. I

I agree with this thought. I've often seen the disconnect between how atheists describe Christians, and what I've experienced as a Christian. My beliefs will always remain safe and secure as long as atheists are breaking apart the strawman figure standing next to me.

You can often tell the difference between atheists that were never religious, and those that walked out of religion. Typically, those that walked out make arguments that actually hit home. I don't agree with their conclusions, but you can tell they know what they're talking about.

Tin-Man's picture
@John Re: "You can often

@John Re: "You can often tell the difference between atheists that were never religious, and those that walked out of religion."

Hey, John, how ya been? Interesting you should say that, because I thought I was the only one who noticed. *chuckle* Took me awhile being on the site to start seeing it, but - then - the differences do tend to be rather subtle, and one has to know what to look for. I find the "psychology" behind it fascinating in an amusing sort of way. Fun thought exercises, basically.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Breezy - You can often tell

Breezy - You can often tell the difference between atheists that were never religious, and those that walked out of religion.

I have to agree with you there. While I know from talking to many atheists, that many of them struggle with fear of the supernatural associated with their previous beliefs; that is very alien to me. To me it is like being afraid of Medusa from the Greek legends. I don't know what fear of hell (or whatever the ex brand pushes) is like, and from what I've seen, I'm thankful for that.

Tin-Man's picture
@Nyar Re: " I don't know

@Nyar Re: " I don't know what fear of hell (or whatever the ex brand pushes) is like, and from what I've seen, I'm thankful for that."

Believe me, it is not a pleasant experience. And it is truly a bitch to get past even after leaving it all behind. As I have said before, that was pretty much the only thing holding me back for so many years.

TheBlindWatchmaker's picture
I agree with this thought

I agree with this thought

Staggering.

arakish's picture
Reference Link

Reference Link

But at least the science I hold to be true actually has truth. Your bullshit is bullshit. Mind diarrhea. Mental vomit. Fantasy. Absolutely no truth whatsoever.

Imagiments of fignations.

rmfr

Tin-Man's picture
@Apollo

@Apollo

Atheist myths?... *curiosity look*.... Hmmmm... There's a new term I have not yet heard..... *clapping excitedly*... Oooooo... Tell us a story, Mr. Apollo! Please, please, please! We love mystical magic stories here!.... *plops down sitting cross-legged on the floor*... *chin resting on balled fists*.... *looking up in excited anticipation*...

arakish's picture
But at least the science I

Reference Link

But at least the science I hold to be true actually has truth. Your bullshit is bullshit. Mind diarrhea. Mental vomit. Fantasy. Absolutely no truth whatsoever.

Imagiments of fignations.

rmfr

Randomhero1982's picture
I haven't addressed my

I made it plainly clear that they were simply my thoughts and my thoughts alone.... however, i also said that they were open to all to be commented on.

Athiest do indeed grow, to simply pen them all in and make that sort of deceleration is an intellectually dishonest thing to do.

The majority just realise as you say, that it is simply a collection of stories and not scientific fact nor rational either.

Apollo's picture
Randomhero1982,

Randomhero1982,

Well don't let me stop you from reading. Its commendable and credible for you to read and understand what you wish to critique.
They way you have been asking questions is credible if you are critiquing fundamentalist Christianity. they think the Bible is a history book, and even more incredible, a science book. Its bizzare. But obviously athiests already have that insight. My apologies if it looked like I was trying to "pen them all in". But believe it or not, many christians reject the Fundy view of the Bible too.

Atheists need an atheist model operating at a higher intellectual level than their current gurus, (Dawkins for example), and maybe if you keep reading you will become what they need.

Randomhero1982's picture
Apollo,

Apollo,

Of course, it has to be done... Granted, I find the entire notion as ridiculous in the extreme.
However, I'm more interested in why people believe and why people hold the beliefs they do.

Thank you on the comment on how I structured or presented my questions... as I've mentioned before in other posts... I had zero indoctrination at all and my first run in with theism was at British second school when I was 12-13yrs old.
So the concept has been met with being in the same realm as Santa and so on.
But yet it's fascinating to me that so many do believe.

Not all atheists have the aforementioned held aloft like some shining beacon.

I loved Hitchens prior to 'god is not great' as he is a great debates, a word Smith and keen intellect.

I love Dawkins for his scientific accumin in the field of evolutionary biology dating to the releas3 of the selfish gene.

We have other reasons to support these people... for the most they think on the whole... rationally, empirically and with intellectually honesty.

My hope is to raise more dialogue with this thread.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Apollo

@ Apollo
"But believe it or not, many christians reject the Fundy view of the Bible too"

Yes, because some christians have actually read the thing and are horrified at the content, and, to avoid cognitive dissonance, make up interpretations that do no disgust them.

BTW...you still have not answered my questions about the yardstick you use to interpret your bible...

Apollo's picture
Well thanks for your

Well thanks for your explanation of why some christians reject the Fundy view of the Bible. I assume you are talking about yourself.

Yardstick: I really don't get the yardstick metaphor here, as if measuring is in some sense necessary. Interpreting the Bible as literature recognizes it as a colletcion of prose, poetry, symbolic writing. (After telling that to a Fundy guy at his house he reportedly had an exorcist over to get the evil spirits out of his house after I left.) Anyway, most of the literary devices used by Biblical writers can be found here, and/or at similiar sites.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/literary-devices-definition-examples-qu...
that's the yardstick for lack of a better label.

I'll try and give you and example from what has already been noted in this thread. Someone brought up the instnace of a snake talking. Many Fundys get trapped into claiming the snake really talked. It doesn't really matter if the snake talked or not, what matters is what the snake said.

The snake example should be easy for you. The snake metaphor is very common in the english language. for instance, someone, even an atheist, might say something like, "that salesman is a snake."

Another metaphor not mentioned here that a lot of people have trouble with in the Bible is fire to purify. Most Fundy's take that literally, as if somone is going to take a blow torch to someone to purify them. In reality it is a metaphor taken from the refining of metal. As you may be aware, ancient people discovered when they applied fire to specific types of rock, they could seperate metal from the impurities. In forums such as this sometimes some people "flame" somone else. Not always, but often it is an attempt to purify the thinking of the person being flamed. It also could be to get the flamed person to leave the forum to purify the forum. In the Bible there are pharases such as the eternal fires of hell, and what not. They don't mean it literally anymore than flaming in a forum is meant to literally use fire. 'Eternal fires of hell' phrase suggests something like 'a person is deemed such a dead loss that flaming forever won't help.'

This is not actually a "yardstick" as I don't really know why you pick the yardstick metaphor. so the best I can do is point you to literary devices so when reading one can recognize the device and interpret accordingly.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Apollo

@ Apollo

A "Yardstick" is an old unit of measure, used in english to also "denote a set of criteria by which one judges"

You have evaded a straight answer to my questions and examples of texts and substituted a very poor example of your own.

Are you saying you play it by ear? If you "feel" its a metaphor or allegory or a lie; you just call it as you see it?

You have no definitive way of measuring your assertions? Merely your sole opinion on its literary or historical merit?

Please try and answer without evasion. I accept that it is a trait of theists when asked hard questions, but do make the attempt.

Apollo's picture
Elsewhere in this thread,

Elsewhere in this thread, prior to your asking this question, I have posted what the Bible isn't: it isn't history, it isn't science, it isn't rational. So what is it: it's is literature. so the set of criteria by which i judge is literary criteria.

Read the thread. I have stated that in many posts. I answered your question beofre you even asked it.

Randomhero1982's picture
So, not only is theism

So, not only is theism awfully defined, but god(s) is/are poorly defined and the bible (or specific religious text) is poorly definied...

Now let's add that all of the religious world views require the suspension of the laws of nature and all science, but also cannot be tested, proven or falsified.

Not to mention that now, according to you Apollo, your beholden texts are 'Just literature'...

Do you not see why so many people consider the entire concept to be total bollocks?

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