Buddhism - ' non-religion' religion & reality check on spoiled kid.

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Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Buddhism - ' non-religion' religion & reality check on spoiled kid.

Getting a rough feel for this debate room and being relatively new

The - all religion is bad - feeling in this forum doesn't seem to touch on Buddhism, which is closer to a philosophy than a religion.

I haven't seen much discussion on that subject. Is that because it has less focus on a deity or because the demographics are more Judeo Christian background and few people here are familiar with it?

I would also count myself in that group. I know very little about Buddhism

This question is partly driven by the answer on Quora and snow storm Riley

The Quora answer about the mind set of the rich related how they have no concept that they can't have anything they want by waving their magic credit card.

They are totally incredulous that transportation closes down for REALLY bad weather. My boss had to deal with about a dozen suicidal New Yorkers the last 2 weeks. Since the weather forced the closure of the Interstates, of course they could take all the little tiny goat trails that their GPS told them about to get to the casino and water park.

Then they wonder why they are skidded off the road and the police don't IMMEDIATELY come to rescue them from their own folly in the middle of No where.

The Buddha was the same way. He was a spoiled rich kid who totally freaked out at the site of a sick old poor man and created a new religion out of the reality check.

It positively changed society and created a massive population jump.

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chimp3's picture
Buddha was not a good role

Buddha was not a good role model. Committing suicide by starvation? A rich kid that inspired a religion of beggars instead of philanthropists? In their defense, they do lack the long history of atrocities that the Abrahamic faiths do. I remember a monk setting himself on fire during the Vietnam War. Any philosophy that would inspire that level of self sacrifice is dysfunctional.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Suicide by starvation - Don't

Suicide by starvation - Don't know.

Begging also don't know - But you need money to be a philanthropist - I think the point was to change society WITHOUT money. See also Christ & Gandhi.

Dysfunctional - Gandhi and the Suffragettes and others going on hunger strikes to stop wars and oppression. & Motherhood do you also consider those dysfunctional? Unpaid or low paid work to care for you or put food on your table.

I wouldn't criticize self sacrifice when you are probably the beneficiary.

chimp3's picture
Who benefits from you

Who benefits from you lighting yourself on fire?

Sheldon's picture
I agree, and would add that I

I agree, and would add that I find the concept of karma quite nauseating. It basically teaches that everything is the deserved consequence of previous acts. Which apart from being demonstrably absurd, can be seen to be deeply pernicious on even a cursory examination. It also teaches that humans should learn to avoid attachments, not just to hedonistic pleasures, but all emotional attachments as well, so as to avoid suffering. This doesn't strike me as the best way for people to live, and to raise a child in this way is unconscionable. It advocates the sexual repression of celibacy, now if an individual wants to be celibate that's their right, but there is ample evidence that enforced celibacy is deeply pernicious.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
deserved consequence of

deserved consequence of previous acts - some would call that Justice - fallacy is the assumption that that is the REASON for misfortune

Are you non-American? We seem to incarcerate vast numbers of people based on that premise and the false premise of the nations 'religious' founders. I could be beneficial if used appropriately as a teaching mechanism. It seems more to be scape goat psychosis - Everything will balance as long as SOMEONE/THING is punished for a mis-deed. The term is straight out of the Old Testament - The head priest would lay his hands on a goat and ceremonially transfer ALL the peoples' sins onto a goat which was then taken outside the walls to purge the evil from the residents.

How would you classify drunk driving and/or death from not wearing a seat belt?

Has anyone here heard of any research into the phenomenon? I was hoping to find out here. Google hasn't been much help.

Any psychiatrists/ human behavior researchers studying this group for insight?

Sheldon's picture
"fallacy is the assumption

"fallacy is the assumption that that is the REASON for misfortune"

Well of course that is what karma claims, and was precisely my point. I'm not claiming this is true of course, as I don't believe in karma.

The karmic idea that an infant dying of cancer somehow has done something to deserve it, and the parents looking on helpless in unimaginable emotional pain deserve it, and so on and so on, is a vile dangerous idea.

"Has anyone here heard of any research into the phenomenon?"

What phenomenon? Karma is not a phenomenon, if that's what you mean you're begging the question.

" Everything will balance as long as SOMEONE/THING is punished for a mis-deed."

Pardon me but that's poppycock, and a fairly dangerous notion as well.

" The head priest would lay his hands on a goat and ceremonially transfer ALL the peoples' sins onto a goat which was then taken outside the walls to purge the evil from the residents."

Hence the origin of the term "scapegoating", another concept I think is vile. We are each responsible for our actions, and the idea we can shift these onto someone or something else is absurd and immoral.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
The phenomenon I was talking

The phenomenon I was talking about is the terminal stupidity of trying to kill yourself off doing what it dangerous for no reason.

Karma - Doing something to deserve it- ABSOLUTELY NOT - Agreed that is INCREDIBLY toxic.

But what is worse is - I could have done something to stop it and didn't - So in that regard, the karna would be LESS painful. I do not believe that religious spring up for no other reason than to make people miserable. They have VITAL functions for the groups. The desperate task is to separate the healing from the toxic manipulation of the religion. That is also the big WHY I am asking. I remember the episode of Alien Nation about the various human and alien religions. The Ex-Catholic police officer is angrily telling his alien co-worker - Religion never put food on the table, a roof over my head, or money in my wallet.

His co-worker totally confused asks. Your religion is supposed to do any of that?

Other parts of the episode have the loving ceremonies of the other religions followed by the alien religious zealot trying to murder the member of the essential 3rd gender of the aliens. The human yells at the would be murderer - Why in all the love do you only see the hate? Other part of my question.

Science fiction - the other religious debate.

" Everything will balance as long as SOMEONE/THING is punished for a mis-deed."

Pardon me but that's poppycock, and a fairly dangerous notion as well. ABSOLUTELY - Which is what I was trying to say. Yet that seems to be a standard, world wide, human belief religious or non-religious. I am trying to find out why.

The groups in power world wide are trying to kill the minorities within their midst because of COURSE ALL their problems are caused by the minorities and if you get rid of the minorities the problems will mysteriously disappear. No attempt to find out the REAL cause. Do NOT do the same thing and blame religion. The problem is more basic than that and has been documented as young as infancy. If I hate beets and you like them - then you must be a BAD person. Also the male/female good/bad split. It starts at the pre-verbal.stage. The problem is NOT GROWING OUT OF IT.!

Hence the origin of the term "scapegoating", another concept I think is vile. We are each responsible for our actions, and the idea we can shift these onto someone or something else is absurd and immoral. - ABSOLUTELY Agreed and also absolutely a personality trait shown worldwide. So stop whining and WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO STOP IT? I thought this was supposed to be a group of CARING Atheists. That's what the banner at the top of forum says.

LogicForTW's picture
@Mrs. Paul Owczarek

@Mrs. Paul Owczarek
I had a bit of a hard time following what you were trying to say in the above posting. So I will just respond to your final 2 sentences.

We don't care, but we do give a shit :)

Much of this site's resources (not really this forum side of the site, but the rest of it.) Is giving information and contact information for people who identify as atheist or possibly agnostic/naturalism resources to find help if they are being persecuted for being atheist or the like. I would say we, (by we, I mean the site, individual forum members have no responsibility to do anything,) care by spreading knowledge, and having a place to discuss, support each other etc.

I am admitly mostly here to debate, maybe help spread knowledge, and within my debate I find further answers for myself. I am well aware that I am unlikely to contribute much to "converting" people to atheist. That is not my goal, nor is atheism a religion or really even an organization, we for the most part certainly do not try to "recruit" people. Pretty much all of us atheist eagerly await the day that atheist are much more accepted in the world, and people throw down the shackles of pretty much any organized religion.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Thanks for reply. I am

Thanks for reply. I am mostly here fighting 'legalized' pedophilia in the Catholic Church and trying to understand the psychology of bullying/ power trip & terminal stupidity. The title of the forum intrigued me and I wanted to see what you are talking about.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Oh, yeah. I am somewhat in

Oh, yeah. I am somewhat in favor of self sacrifice to stop a war. Would you prefer self sacrifice for terminal stupidity?

I am thinking of the reaction to the anti drug war ad with the egg & the frying pan. This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs - Frying egg in pan. "Any, questions?" - Result of ad, especially among adolescent males - Wow! That looks cool! I gotta go out & get some drugs!

Also one of the few surviving mass shooters on why he did it. ~ I was in a bad, place feeling trapped and I wanted out. 10 years later - Thank God they stopped me before anyone else was hurt.

Why would this be any better? Again, have the psychiatrists come up for this terminal thrill seeking?

Sheldon's picture
"Oh, yeah. I am somewhat in

"Oh, yeah. I am somewhat in favor of self sacrifice to stop a war."

I prefer more effective methods, setting fire to himself didn't have any effect on the Vietnam war.

"I am thinking of the reaction to the anti drug war ad with the egg & the frying pan. This is your brain. This is your brain on drugs - Frying egg in pan. "Any, questions?" "

Just one, you've never tried recreational drugs have you? This overly simplistic and dishonest approach of "drugs = bad" is unhelpful. What do you suppose happens when adolescents experiment and find out they've been lied to? I'd prefer a more brutally honest approach,this might mean young people do a line of cocaine or smoke some pot, or take ecstasy occasionally and come out the other side, whilst knowing that touching crack or heroin will in all probability involve a squalid descent towards an early and ignominious death. Knowing the difference between using crack and doing a line of cocaine, and all associated risks for both it the very least we owe children reaching adolescence who will otherwise be blind to the dangers.

"Also one of the few surviving mass shooters on why he did it. ~ I was in a bad, place feeling trapped and I wanted out. 10 years later - Thank God they stopped me before anyone else was hurt."

Or the US could stop making it so easy for people to own firearms, this seems to be a no brainer for most countries in the developed west outside of the US, and they have vastly lower rates of gun crime unsurprisingly. Gun ownership is a cultural thing in the US, so change the culture, and the law.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Agreed the method was

Agreed the method was horrible and ineffective and not at all desirable, but at least he died TRYING to do something CONSTRUCTIVE. World would be a better place if more people did that, not a worse place. Again, better than a mass shooting - lesser of two AWFUL evils.

No. I've never tried recreational drugs other than about a half glass of wine. I go DIRECTLY to headache and wonder why ANYONE would voluntarily consume large quantities and pay large amounts of money for the privilege of poisoning themselves. I can see the damage around and WANT NO PART OF IT. Including the social aspect of it. Humans are stupid enough as it is. They need no help becoming even more stupid and are irritating enough while sober. You didn't answer the question about why adolescents would want to try to do something they are told is dangerous in the first place.

(I also don't understand the concept of sitting watching other people get exercise - especially golf - It just makes me want to pull out my hiking boots.)

What do you suppose happens when adolescents experiment and find out they've been lied to? - I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you sure you do? The crack/cocaine division is a racist fallacy used to incarcerate large numbers of blacks. Congratulations on supporting that. Sources I've read say they are chemically the same. I don't see the advantage of experimenting with the drugs anymore than you see experimenting with the guns.

Growing up on a farm where a gun was just another needed tool; I am at least familiar with that. My father taught me to shoot when I was around 10. And No- I believe the NRA has gone from being a useful reference group to being complete lunatics. I took their BB gun safety class when I about 10. And no - I think bump stock, lots of semi automatic rifles, and guns within city limits are totally stupid. I agree it is the culture of self fulfilling paranoia. I could use one to hunt or defend myself if needed, but have better sources of food in a city and prefer our stupid Great Dane for protection. She at least is entertaining and a prod to exercise.

Let's see - "snorting a line of cocaine" With a deviated septum and chronic sinusitis and lots of nasal allergies - Does NOT sound appealing and I VERY much doubt you would want to witness the probable results either unless you have a really STRONG stomach and like a total gross out.

LogicForTW's picture
@Mrs. Paul Owczarek

@Mrs. Paul Owczarek

Setting fire to one self is never constructive. I would argue, especially for the person, it is destructive. I can not find the exact numbers but I believe at least 95+% of all people that set fire to themselves as a statement, that survive; deeply, deeply! regret their decision. I would agree it is a lesser evil then mass shootings.

Do not forget, caffeine, refined concentrated sugar are also both mood altering drugs. Ever take any prescription drugs? What about cold medicine? All drugs. But yes I agree, alcohol consumption seems like a pretty bad idea. In large quantities it poisons you, raises your risk of all sorts of disease, (depending on how much you drink.) And alcohol is closely involved in many automobile accidents, domestic violence and other forms of violence. It is an awful substance that society as a whole could do without in this day and age. Some people can consume alcohol in small amounts responsibility, but many cannot, as it is an addictive substance that can permanently alter your brain. And many people self medicate with alcohol.

I too as an adolescent did dangerous things like alcohol because I was told not to. Once I turned 21, alcohol lost a lot of its allure to me. Dealing with this is a complicated issue with no easy solutions.
I also never considered golfing "exercise" especially with golf carts. The best exercise is resistance training. Walking/running is definitely not bad, but can do a lot of damage to your toes, feet, knees, legs and hips if done excessively. (Good running surfaces, shoes, and proper form can help a lot though.)

I think the problem of adolescents finding out they been lied to when experimenting is a big issue. Marijuana is a class 1 controlled substance by US law, but its side effects are less that of alcohol when taken recreationally, for medical use, Marijuana is a far more effective long term pain management tool then opioids prescribed by doctors, (fueling much of the opioid epidemic in the US.) Pot is less addictive than alcohol and far less than opioids, impossible to OD on.

Psychedelics or Hallucinogens, also gets a bad rap, with many of them also class 1 or 2. When teens take them and nothing bad happens it makes them wonder if far worse drugs like heroin or meth might be okay. Psychedelics are very difficult to "od" on as their effect maxes out, with many of them like ecstasy, cannot be taken again and again as after the use and for months after the body has a large tolerance to the effects. Therefore making them non addictive.

I agree, crack cocaine versus powder "pure" cocaine is a huge racially motivated thing, that is beyond terrible. Same for marijuana. Top political officials even admitted to pushing to get these drugs/forms of drugs heavily criminalized so they had an excuse to round up blacks, hispanics and "hippies." Instead of being based on medical science. The entire "drug war" going on the US is a horrific waste of money, resources, and criminalization. Glaring examples like: your pot dealer on the street getting 20 years in prison w/o parole for a nonviolent crime, where a serial child molester/rapist may be on parole in as little as 5 years.

Additionally the drug war ignores economics 101. The simple basic principle that: you cannot effectively go after supply to try and reduce consumption of a product/service. You have to go after demand. Going after supply only raises the price of the product, which in turn incentivises more supply, even with risk with the law or other criminal risks. It also incentivises the sale of drugs that are highly addictive, for people to go through the trouble of seeking drugs through the black market. 40 years of "the drug war" in the US and the only thing that has happened is record profits for drug lords and those in the industry. (Also record profits for the privatized commercialized incarceration industry.)

The current "drug war" also unfairly goes after the poor. A rich person can get better, cleaner drugs of their choice through a willing doctor to keep it completely legal, or buy the prescriptions they want off of friends/family/or drug contact with little to no risk for themselves. There are online guides for those that have the means to get any drug they like, legally, it just much more expensive than the street version. Even if they do get busted, they can simply buy their way out of trouble, not exactly bribes, but more hiring of expensive personal lawyers, paying fines instead of jail time, or even if they come across a judge that does not play that game, get themselves booked in jails that are more like hotels, (private rooms, all the amenities) that they pay for. Additionally you can usually get a work leave, where you can still go to work during the day.

Agree with your sentiments about guns.

Cognostic's picture
Mrs. Paul OwczarekBuddhism, @

Mrs. Paul OwczarekBuddhism, @ closer to a philosophy than a religion.

NO! Buddhism contains a philosophy of self enlightenment in it; however, it is as poisonous as any other faith based belief on the planet.

Begin with the miracles: demythologizing, naturalizing, historicizing, and rationalizing Buddhism, began early in the modern Western encounter with the religion. It is in the West and only in the West that many of the superstitions have died.

According to the lunar calendar the first month is the miracle month. When Shakyamuni was forty, six great Hindu teachers, who represented the six schools of Hinduism that existed at the time, challenged Shakyamuni to a competition of miracles. At that time great kings and noble families sponsored teachers who could perform miracles. So Buddha accepted the challenge. He accepted because many would be benefited and achieve the arhat state and people of the future would be inspired to practice as a result of his demonstration. The first day to the fifteenth of the first month are precious and the fifteenth is especially great. The competition happened in the Bihar in India at Sravasti. 80,000 Buddhists and 84,000 Hindus attended the competition.

On the first day Buddha held his toothpick, put it on the ground and it turned to the wish fulfilling tree. It was decorated with jewels, like a Christmas tree. On the second day Buddha manifested two wish fulfilling jewels. The third day the king offered to wash Buddha's feet. When Buddha washed his feet, he threw the water and it became a pool with the eight special qualities of water. Whoever drank or touched it were healed. Today there is a well there where small amounts of water are offered for sale. It is useful for treating disease. On the fourth day it rained and the rain filled the eight canals. The fifth day Buddha emitted golden light from his mouth and people could see beings of the six realms being liberated. On the sixth day Buddha transformed some energy and everyone became clairvoyant and knew each others minds. On the seventh day Buddha manifested as the wheel turning king and many people converted to Buddhism. Up to that time the Hindu teachers had not shown miracles. On the eighth day the gods from Indra's palace sponsored the meals. They served Buddha and made offerings to him. Buddha's hand pressed the side of his seat and a thundering sound was emitted. Five frightening giant cannibals came out of the ground and they went for the seats of the Hindu teachers. Vajrapani also threatened the Hindu teachers. The Hindu teachers ran away. Vajrapani manifested a great storm. It became a tornado which picked up the Hindu teachers and their retinues and tossed them in the water. 60,000 Hindus converted that day and many monks attained the arhat's state and understanding. The gods showered flowers.

There is the Miracle of Buddha's Birth:
It is said[2] that immediately after his birth, he stood up, took seven steps north, and uttered:

"I am chief of the world,
Eldest am I in the world,
Foremost am I in the world.
This is the last birth.
There is now no more coming to be."

Furthermore, every place the baby Buddha placed his foot, a lotus flower bloomed.[2] There is a claim that the Buddha's birth was miraculous via his mother's dream of a white elephant. Traditions have Buddha's mother pulling the Buddha from her thigh. It was not a natural birth but a holy or supernatural birth.

PHILOSOPHY:
The horror of Buddhism is its philosophy and reliance on Karma and Rebirth. You are continuously born into this world and eventually progress to a state of Nirvana.

The horror of this system of thought is responsible for the cast system. You are born into the life you deserve. If your child is born retarded or deformed it is not only because the parents deserve it "It is their Karma" but the deformed child also earned his or her Karma in a past life. Here in Korea as throughout Asia, children born deformed are sent to the streets to be beggars or shipped off to plantations where they are taught to pick fruit or do some sort of manual labor with no education, no childhood, and no chance at life. Parents hide the birth of deformed or retarded kids less they be socially embarrassed for the wrongs they have done in past lives.

BUDDHISM IS BULLSHIT! Like the Bible there are bits of wisdom strewn throughout Buddhist thought. But like the Christian faith and belief BS, at its' core, Buddhism is no better than any other faith based religious mythology.

http://orthoprax.blogspot.kr/2007/06/buddhas-many-miracles.html

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Interesting tutorial. I had

Interesting tutorial. I had heard none of that. I thought Karma, caste system, and reincarnation was Hinduism not Buddhist. I think there is some overlap. Thank you for the non-Judaeo Christian viewpoint.

The fear of deformed child is not religious. It is primate/ biological and shown even in the great apes and caged chickens. I think it was Jane Goodal & the chimps that had the polio epidemic. The group ran from the afflicted in terror. It might have been Diane Fossey (?) and the gorillas.

Worse among caged chickens, but seen in the rest of them. An injured bird will be pecked to death by the rest of the group.

Jesus is on record of saying it is NOT right.

Now the opposite and more important question - Where does the human outrage at the injustice come from?

Chimps and other primates have been shown to have a moral code. Edgar Rice Boroughs had the theme of self sacrifice in one of his Tarzan books.

I see a lot of moral outrage on this Forum - How and Why and is it stronger or weaker in the atheists or the religious?

Is it stronger or weaker in those who demand the miracles? My personal opinion - weaker. My sense of the 'religious' looking for the miracles are those looking for the - Great ATM in the sky or the Get out of Jail Free group.

The Christian apocrypha had a lot more of this junk with the baby Jesus and the miraculous bathwater and clay pigeons coming to life and baby Jesus causing people who upset him to drop down dead. The Biblical editors at least had the sense to pitch a lot of that.

Like I said, this is an interesting forum to talk about religion.

RANJEET's picture
well it looks like lots of

well it looks like lots of western people don't have that much knowledge about Buddha. and the fact they even don't know the real history and teachings of buddha. I'll recommend you guys Buddha And His Dhamma book written by B. R. Ambedkar. I am putting the link of book down below.

http://www.baiae.org/downloads-baiae/category/2-the-buddha-and-his-dhamm...

and for those who don't want to download the book and read it I'll share some of information from that book .

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Guilty. Thanks for the view

Guilty. Thanks for the view from the other side. I am not aware of any Buddhists in a 100 miles from my location.

RANJEET's picture
PART I: HIS PLACE IN HIS

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RANJEET's picture
§ 6. To believe that Karma is

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RANJEET's picture
PART IV: WHAT IS NOT DHAMMA

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Sapporo's picture
The reason why religion is

The reason why religion is bad is because it is pure superstition.

I dislike Buddhism because it sees suffering as an inherent quality of existence - indeed, it sees it as desirable. Its dogma is life-denying in that it does not encourage you to improve or enjoy life.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
pure superstition. -

pure superstition. - Absolutely not. Even superstition is defined as humanity trying to make sense of the world - Very badly, but still trying. Even pigs have been shown to be superstitious. They will repeat the magic movement that they associate with what caused the food to appear the last time.

I don't have time now to hunt up the religious study cockatoo story, But religion contains VITAL human bonding functions whether you believe in the sun, Christianity, the holiness of the right to bear arms, OR YOU ALL COMING TOGETHER HERE in solidarity to support each other in your NON-RELIGION RELIGION. and no that ISN'T an oxymoron.

I thought it was supposed to be the Buddhists who were most immune to PTSD or am I mixing up my eastern religions?

The Christians expect everything to go their way and break down under torture/POW. The Buddhists expecting the worst, manage to hang on and survive. That said - my God! What did people in your part of the world have to endure for that default to become the survival mechanism?

Or was that the power play/translation of whatever ruling party made it the 'state' religion? SOP in the world religion book I got that included Buddhism - Ruler - I think I can use this religion as a power base. What the base of the religion meant to the populace that adopted it was often irrelevant. Are you Korean? I can look up that version/ruler in the book.

Cross reference the religion of Dune on the sand planet. (author Herbert?)

I do see your point, though. I am thinking of another science fiction book my niece handed out among the collection of books at her wedding. The 'religious' group were a minority group that had been isolated for being DANGEROUSLY contagious. They were ignored and expected to do nothing; especially as they still showed the missing limbs of the disease. Then a doctor checked and found out NONE of them had the disease. They had internalized the expectation of worthlessness and self loathing and were - missing limbs/eye level of self mutilation. The heroes in the book cared and terrified the main group in the population into stopping it by breaking the group apart and adopting the individual members into families in the main part of society. (Actually I sent it to poop Benne Dick as troll/ harangue on his concept of religion.)

Are any of you having to deal with family / friends who are cutters?

My 'religious belief' in you atheists. You are essential for the survival of religion by keeping the theists honest. You are doing a wonderful job. Keep up the good work!

Sheldon's picture
" Even superstition is

" Even superstition is defined as humanity trying to make sense of the world"

No it's not?

Superstition
Noun
Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural.

"Even pigs have been shown to be superstitious. They will repeat the magic movement that they associate with what caused the food to appear the last time."

That's not superstition, that behaviour modification.

"My 'religious belief' in you atheists. You are essential for the survival of religion by keeping the theists honest. You are doing a wonderful job. Keep up the good work!"

I've not noticed this to be the case from my interactions with theists if I'm honest.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
That's not superstition, that

That's not superstition, that behaviour modification - If you do the magic dance/ chant - whatever that ISN'T behavior modification?

I've not noticed this to be the case from my interactions with theists if I'm honest. - Definitely agree. I said the above was my view.
My theology is a little different. I'm thinking I am more Unitarian from the little I've read on Unitarian. In any case, I like the stories of how they changed the world for the better - Florence Nightingale for one.

Again that goes back to humans trying to make sense of the world badly. You are telling them the equivalent of up is down and they can't process it. You are going to get nowhere until you can translate to their world view. Agreed a lot of them are very self restrictive in world view because that is all they can process. If you care, you have to read a LOT more religious history to be able to translate. It all depends if you are serious about bringing people together or just want to gripe that your world view is the only valid one. = your 'religion'

Sheldon's picture
"If you do the magic dance/

"If you do the magic dance/ chant - whatever that ISN'T behavior modification?"

Pigs are quite intelligent, so they will repeat behaviours they have learned will get the result they want. Nothing supernatural is required or remotely evidenced to explain this phenomenon. Your inclusion of the word magic is begging the question here, a logically fallacious claim.
__________________
"I like the stories of how they changed the world for the better - Florence Nightingale for one."

Naturally most of us are made happier by the idea that the world is filled with empathetic and altruistic people. However even if this is motivated by religious beliefs it doesn't validate the belief itself in any way.

" If you care, you have to read a LOT more religious history to be able to translate"

One need not be an expert in unicorn husbandry in order to reject the idea that unicorns are real.

"if you are serious about bringing people together or just want to gripe that your world view is the only valid one. = your 'religion'"

I'm not sure I've ever claimed to want to "bring people together", or know what it even means in reality. I am a secularist and a humanist as well as an atheist, at its core this champions the idea of universal human rights. Things are true or false independently of human belief. Lastly I have no religion, and though my worldview encompasses my lack of belief on any deities, and is obviously shaped at least in part by atheism, atheism itself is not a world view.

People are indoctrinated into religious beliefs, they are not born believing. If they receive an education that teaches them to think critically for themselves they're unlikely to adhere to irrational and unevidenced superstition. Though I'd agree superstition to some extent seems to be innate in us. It's no accident that atheism in the US rises sharply among those people who leave home and the influence of family to go to university.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Agree with what you are

Agree with what you are saying.

champions the idea of universal human rights. - That was what I was looking for when I saw the title of the forum.

Sapporo's picture
https://en.m.wiktionary.org

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/religion
"Religion: Borrowed from Anglo-Norman religiun, from Old French religion, from Latin religiō (“scrupulousness, pious misgivings, superstition, conscientiousness, sanctity, an object of veneration, cult-observance, reverence”). Most likely from the Indo-European root h₂leg with the meanings preserved in Latin "dīligěre" and "lěgěre", i.e. to read repeatedly or to have something solely in mind."

Religion invokes the supernatural, that which is outside nature, and thus unobservable. To belief in something you are incapable of observing is pure superstitition. It is nonsense to say that atheism is a religion, considering it represents a lack of belief in something which cannot be observed.

If people have positive effects from being part of a religion, it is not because of any inherent truth in that religion. If a person is concerned with truth, they cannot force themselves to believe something contrary to their inclination, with the hope it will provide them with any alleged positive effects.

Research testing the success rate of the Alcoholics Anonymous showed that members actually had a lower success rate than a control group who received no assistance. In the AA, members are told to accept that they are unable to get better without the help of "god". This suggests that members become inclined to believe they have limited agency in their actions, and that "god" will sort everything.

In regards self-harm, my view is along those lines. Those who self-harm should seek medical advice, trying solutions that have a proven track record of reducing self-harm. Further, if this does not work, they should seek a second opinion, and so on. (Because there are few things worse than being told you have exhausted all options from a single professional who was not especially sympathetic).

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Religion invokes the

Religion invokes the supernatural, that which is outside nature, and thus unobservable. To belief in something you are incapable of observing is pure superstition. You just blasted the start of quantum physics, gravity, germ theory, and many other sciences. They started with the belief or at least concept of the existence of something not immediately seen and by the very nature of science subject to change based on new data.

It is nonsense to say that atheism is a religion, considering it represents a lack of belief in something which cannot be observed. Yet you are here continually arguing your world view. observance, reverence - Your lack of belief defines many of your actions as does my belief define many of mine - religion also means - Way of Life. One dictionary does not a complete definition make.

(scrupulousness, pious misgivings, conscientiousness, sanctity, an object of veneration, -observance, reverence) Morals, the rule of law - I hope you are not seriously saying you don't believe in ANY of the above list. You sound like a VERY dangerous person.

If people have positive effects from being part of a religion, it is not because of any inherent truth in that religion.(No, if the religion has positive societal effects, it has truth in it. Otherwise, neither it nor its society would survive.)

has If a person is concerned with truth, they cannot force themselves to believe something contrary to their inclination, with the hope it will provide them with any alleged positive effects. - Also absolutely correct - Mohamed and my priest would agree with you.Faith is a gift from God. The rest of religion is supposed to be those of us with faith trying to help those of you without it not be alone. Very little makes me angrier than the attempt at forced conversion, especially for the financial gain of the person trying to do the converting. Part of the reason for Jesus turning over the tables in the temple. The other was to make SURE he put his life on the line. Whatever else you think of him. That was guaranteed to make sure he was to be crucified. Nothing made the powers that be angrier than to have their money stream interrupted

He or his story tellers were serious about what they wanted to accomplish, consciously or unconsciously. Believe in Christ's divinity or not, that is who you are and you seem to care about what is for the benefit of the group. DO NOT throw away the important lessons of the narrative. Narrative is known as the best method of teaching empathy and other vital core societal values. If it wasn't important, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS DEBATE 2000 years later. How many other religions of that time frame survive and have spread through the world.

Research testing the success rate of the Alcoholics Anonymous showed that members actually had a lower success rate than a control group who received no assistance. In the AA, members are told to accept that they are unable to get better without the help of "god". This suggests that members become inclined to believe they have limited agency in their actions, and that "god" will sort everything. - Are you sure of your research source? That seems backwards from most other support groups.If true, it would be VERY important to find out WHY.

without the help of "god". T a burden shared is a burden halved. I would think it would be scarier to think you are totally on your own with no one to help you if you fall flat on your face. Also if the group was counter productive, it should have collapsed by now unless something else is propping it up. Something in your statements isn't right and I have no data about what the problem is and don't you DARE knee jerk and say the word "god" in there jinxes the whole thing. That is REAL superstition. Your example says that something weird is going on and somebody with more data better start trying to fix this fast before more people self destruct.

In regards self-harm, my view is along those lines. Those who self-harm should seek medical advice, trying solutions that have a proven track record of reducing self-harm. Further, if this does not work, they should seek a second opinion, and so on. (Because there are few things worse than being told you have exhausted all options from a single professional who was not especially sympathetic). - Your realize you just described the traditional view of the clergy. For millennia, they were the only educated professionals available to large segments of the population. Good, bad, or indifferent, they were the only doctors and counselors available - often winding up with the position because they were the only member of the group able to help. Depending on the group or mental state they are often the only ones trusted. Think of the syphilis studies on the blacks or the poor training of the Haitians using 'western' medicine - The faith healer/priest if more trustworthy and safer.

Sapporo's picture
Science "only" deals with the

Science "only" deals with the observable.

I gave you a description of religion to show it is fundamentally based on the worship of the supernatural. Venerating things which have no observable effect on reality can only be the opposite of living morally. If there is a moral way to live, it can be done independently of religion. Spending time and resources on people that actually exist and need assistance is likely to be far more productive.

Most religions treat individuals as inherently flawed and/or expect adherents to shun earthly pleasures. Many of them, including certainly the most prominent ones, treat those of a contrary philosophy as immoral and subhuman. It is a nonsense to say that being part of such a religion halves any burden. If there is any moral truth in the world, it is to see a common humanity of others, to cooperate with them, and ultimately, to live a healthy and pleasurable life.

Mrs. Paul Owczarek's picture
Venerating the concept of

Venerating the concept of self sacrifice for good of the group and rejoicing in the sanctity of all humanity is immoral?

Most people learn their moral codes through religion.

If there is a moral way to live, it can be done independently of religion. - Then all you atheist would be 'saints' I have not gotten the feel from this forum that this group has a monopoly on morals.

If I had seen a better moral compass outside of religion, I would have joined. If you can't do a better job, you have no right to complain. Exactly how are you providing a moral compass to anyone?

Spending time and resources on people that actually exist and need assistance is likely to be far more productive. Definitely agree. Health workers in 3rd world countries are losing lives for the lack of pennies worth of vinegar. Wouldn't that be a better use of resources that the recreational use of drugs that was discussed elsewhere? All I see from the recreational use of drugs is violence and the destruction of health. I sponsor a little girl in El Salvador whose mother was raped at 12.

Most religions treat individuals as inherently flawed and/or expect adherents to shun earthly pleasures. You think humanity is flawless with no room for improvement and are a firm believer in I've got mine - Screw You? You are more delusional than I am.

It is a nonsense to say that being part of such a religion halves any burden. - You don't believe in support groups either? What about friends? And I thought my autistic spectrum children were anti social.

If there is any moral truth in the world, it is to see a common humanity of others, to cooperate with them, and ultimately, to live a healthy and pleasurable life. Isn't that what I said above? You don't see that as a goal to work for and an acknowledgement of a flawed humanity? - i.e. a moral standard / goal toward 'heaven' No room for improvement in the world?

And the Buddist was complaining that Buddhism was all about karma and sitting in your own filth.

What I miss most about being out of church is being in a group at least trying to make the world a better place.

You are right, though. I am starting find this forum disappointing.

I will probably go back to the story of the Engineer in Hell and move elsewhere.

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