Divine Authority VS Freedom

35 posts / 0 new
Last post
Searching & Exploring's picture
Divine Authority VS Freedom

One day, I thought about a weird, but I consider, reasonable question about Christianity. "Is it fair for God to be God?". The question might sound awkward, and be ambiguous as stated, so I will further explain my reflection and purposeful expression of the question. My question is asking if it is fair for God, to be eternally almighty and more powerful than everyone else, simply for being God. Many will think that it is, and I can see why. You can start by asking, "Who created me, and everything else existing?". In Christianity, such answer would be God. You might then think that since he created everything, he owns everything he created, just as you own your own pieces of art that you create yourself. Ok, fair enough. But to me, in all sincerity, from the bottom of my heart, it did not feel fair, something did not seem fair about this. So, I continued pondering over this question every day. I created thought experiments/circumstances, to have a better chance at answering my question. Another prominent question for me that I asked was based on a real-life scenario, that we all live. I compared God to our parents. When you are born, you are born because of the actions of your parents, you do not ask to be born, but if you have nice, loving parents, they will decide to raise you and protect you during your infant and sometimes youthful years until you become a self-sufficient young adult. Then I ask; As a self-sufficient adult, do my parents own my life, because they gave me it, both biologically and because they helped me through my infant and teenage years? This is where I see the most division in answers between others. Some say that parents do NOT own your life, and your being, that you are completely free from their authority once you become self-sufficient, and that respect and affection from you to them depends on your relationship with them and your feelings towards them. A question here is, were do such societal rules come from, such that to determine that one is COMPLETELY free from their parent’s authority and dominion once reached a self-sufficient adulthood? On the other hand, others might have the opinion that your parents deserved unwavering respect and subjectivity towards them, because they provided you with life, both biologically, emotionally, and financially during your early years. My opinion on such argument is that this kind of puts you in the place of a slave to a master. Unwavering respect and ultimate authority over you. It just does not seem right to me. Maybe it's fair? Maybe it's not fair? But personally, it just feels wrong. Unless slavery is a good thing? After having made such analogy with parents and God, I then re-evaluate the fairness of God being God. I make a few assumptions too when re-evaluating such question. God created me, and personally, I feel that I was born with a spirit to want to feel genuinely, completely free. Because God created me, he must have willingly/purposefully created me with such spirit, or at least he knows that I have such a spirit. Also, since he is a "good" God, he would not purposefully create me to suffer. If we continue with the analogy of God and parents, God is therefore like a parent. The Bible states that God created men in his image. Are sons and daughters not created in the image of their parents? Is it fair for God to be eternally superior than any being he ever created, specifically, us humans? Are we entitled to complete freedom, were we get to make our own decisions in this life and the afterlife, and be our own ultimate authority, just like in the first scenario of a parent-to-child relationship? Or is it fair for God, to always be the top ruler/king of everyone, because he created us. To me, the latter makes me feel enslaved. I can never be as great as God or truly free from his authority, even though I have the urge to be completely free-spirited. Do your parents want to be your king and ultimate ruler eternally? Is that your parent's wish towards you? Or do your parents wish for you to be more successful than them in life. It's not like one wants to overtake God's throne, but can't one have their own throne, without being under the authority of God's throne/authority? Are you comfortable with your parent always being your ultimate authority, meaning that everything you own, that you earned yourself, anything that you create, be it physical or not tangible, that you parents have the ultimate authority in such things, because in the end, you truly don't have your own authority and freedom? Is a child born from a king and queen not eligible to have the right to flee such kingdom and create their own once becoming an adult, and being free from their parent's hierarchal dominion? I myself, personally feel a connection with having genuine, complete freedom from birth/creation-imposed authority over one’s life/soul/being. Maybe it's just a feeling, and we are all meant to subject our life to God, like puppets with limited freedom to live our life, while always being less powerful than our creator/creators, be it God or our parents. To me it seems that in order to live life as a genuine free spirit, a being such as God cannot exist.

Another point one might make is that we live under the dominion of our government, I believe that government and God are way different things. Also, depending on which nation you live in, comparisons of such governmental vs divine authority will differ. I live in the United States. The government in the U.S. is chosen by the people through a democratic process, where everyone’s voice is heard, and decisions are made on a “majority wins” basis. This to me is a lot more different than living under a divine being who does not change his rules AT ALL. You cannot really influence his thinking, and because he has divine power and you don’t, he will be forever a more supreme being than you. Such feels like when God created man, he created a lab experiment. I feel like this because “God” created us inferior to him. This means he is just testing us 24/7 to his liking, and can do anything he wants to us. Such to me seems evil. Parents create their children equal to them. Besides possible defects at birth, your parents create you just as them, with the same potential as themselves. You see, to most parents, their children are not test experiments who they created inferior to them to be able to rule over their life for all eternity. Parents created someone with the same capabilities as themselves, not scared of a throne uprising against them, such as God.

I end this with asking anyone who reads this to let me know if my thoughts make sense at all, and if you understand the points that my writing seems to try to convey. What are your opinions on this tpic? I am genuinely interested in thoughts and opinions about this. Thanks!

Subscription Note: 

Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.

Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.

Diotrephes's picture
Searching & Exp...,

Searching & Exp...,

Suppose you are with your father and mother, your wife, and your own child and his/her spouse and child.
The shit hits the fan and each person has to decide who to save but it is only possible for the person to save himself/herself and one other person.

Who do you think each person would save?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Gawd save us from ANOTHER

Gawd save us from ANOTHER wall of text.....with neither punctuation, paragraphs or a single cogent idea.

When this has been broken down into a lucid post that might justify a considered reply, I might, I might respond. Until then?

.....................

Searching & Exploring's picture
Yeah, it's pretty difficult

Yeah, it's pretty difficult for myself to explain what I meant in the text. I'll see if I can make it more coherent, but the idea itself and explanation is confusing in it of itself.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ S and E Do try.

@ S and E

Do try.

Cognostic's picture
Searching & Exp...

Searching & Exp...
You do not know how to explain. You live in a fantasy world of Christian speak. You pretend the amorphous concepts you use have meaning because they have meaning with fellow believers. However; when those same concepts are held up to the light of day, skepticism, and critical inquiry, they fade away. There is nothing there. Absolutely nothing. Your brain does not know how to function in reality because it has lived in a fantasy world for so long.

Cognostic's picture
Searching & Exp... "DIVINE

Searching & Exp... "DIVINE COMMAND THEORY" Wow, so much wrong here.

1. Is it fair for God to be God?" (The question is inane without first proving there is a god.) Next: The first law of logic, A is A. Fair does not enter into it. Things are what they are.

2. "Who created me, and everything else existing?". You can not start by asking this question. It is "BEGGING THE QUESTION." a fallacy. You are assuming the answer in the question. You can NOT use the word "WHO." You might ask "HOW" things came to be but you can not ASSUME creation by anything spiritual or physical. You do not get to assume "WHO" and you do not get to assume "CREATION." You must offer proof for these assertions.

3. He own's everything and it's not fair. HORSESHIT. You don't own anything. At the very most, you control it until you die. Ownership is a myth. You have purchased the right to use certain things until they are destroyed, the government takes them away or you die.

4. God is nothing like parents. Leave a baby out on your front porch for a week and it will die. Where is your god? Comparing god to any parent, you must compare him to a parent who dumps their baby in a trash bin and then vanishes.

5. "I feel that I was born with a spirit " Please define what in the hell you mean by "SPIRIT" and how you know you have one.

6. "Do my parents own my life, because they gave me it," Body, yes. Life no. They have legal control over you until the age of majority. (Your God has nothing until you prove it is real.) There is nothing in your assertion that could be considered a real-life scenario, God has nothing to do with "REAL LIFE." Prayer studies and un-healed amputees prove it.

7. " Government and God are way different things." We know governments exist. No one has ever proved a god, any god, has ever existed.

8. YOU cannot really influence his (GOD'S) thinking, No shit! We have no evidence for the existence of any god or gods. (Or are you agreeing that prayer is completely frigging useless because there is nothing there to pray to?)

9. "when God created man," Another inane assertion.

10. "Parents create their children equal to them." Another inane comment. You can not charge an infant to be equal to its parents. Are you insane? Next: Parents do not "Create" babies. Babies occur naturally as a result of sexual union or the fertilization of an egg by a sperm. The sperm is not created. The egg is not created. The Baby is not created. You are making an "Equivication Error." Another fallacy. Things that occur naturally are not created. Things that are created may use things that occur naturally but do not occur naturally themselves. Snowflakes / natural. Trees / natural Planets/ natural Life / natural. Buildings/ created, Cars / created. How hard is this to grasp?

@ Searching & Exp... Your thoughts are like the thoughts of every other theist that enters the site. You can not stay on a single topic. You have a shotgun approach to discussing your opinion that involves a spray of one assertion after another after another after another. Nothing is validated. Nothing is logical. Nothing is supported with facts or evidence. It's a typical theist rant.

chimp3's picture
There are no gods.

There are no gods.

Cognostic's picture
And if you think there are...

And if you think there are...... please give us the facts and evidence to prove your assertion. All you have to do is prove your assertion and everyone on the site will believe in Gods. We may not worship the assholes but we will believe they exist.

Algebe's picture
@Searching and Exp: do my

@Searching and Exp: do my parents own my life, because they gave me it, both biologically and because they helped me through my infant and teenage years?

Remember this well, both as a child and if you ever become a parent.

Parents have no rights. They don't own anything. They have duties, and certain authorities that they need to fulfill those duties until their children become independent adults. From day one, the child owns its own life, body, and mind.

Parents don't create their children. Every human being, like every other living thing, is the product of chemical and physical processes driven and guided by evolution. God has nothing to do with anything. He's too busy not existing. If he did exist, he'd be the world's worst deadbeat father. Look how Adam and Jesus turned out. Zeus' children did much better.

David Killens's picture
It is erroneous to consider

It is erroneous to consider this a parent/offspring situation, but at best, a master/pet one. IMO it leans more towards owner/disposable plaything.

If this god exists, it creates and then at a whim, cruelly destroys or even tortures it's hapless victims.

This is not a loving god, this is a self-centered homicidal maniac.

Sapporo's picture
Saying that everything has a

Saying that everything has a creator is not provable.

The view that a person owns everything it creates (if creation is possible) is an aesthetic judgement.

doG's picture
First line..."One day, I

First line..."One day, I thought about a weird, but I consider, reasonable question about Christianity."

Me :\

Anytime I see the word "reasonable" and "christianity" in the same sentence, I get ready for some stupid shit.

in case you are interested folks, the word "god" appears 26 times in this run on paragraph.

I am trying to find some worth in this post, forgive me.

arakish's picture
@ S&E

@ S&E

Another inane and asinine and unreadable wall of text you have vomitted there. Please write it again with smaller paragraphs. Otherwise, I ain't reading that shit and anything you said is just a huge pile of bullshit and horse hoowhee.

rmfr

Talyyn's picture
I make the hypothesis that

I make the hypothesis that theists seems to be bad writers.

arakish's picture
@ Talyyn

@ Talyyn

“I make the hypothesis that theists seem to be bad writers.”

Seem? Just seem? I think we have enough proof here on just these forums that this is no longer a hypothesis. This is a Full-Blown Theorem.

rmfr

Talyyn's picture
@arakish

@arakish

How do we quote sentence like you all do? Yes it could be a theorem, but there have been ahem... "proficient" theists writers in the past so...

Anyway all of his textual wall is summed like this: "Might is Right".

arakish's picture
@ Talyyn

@ Talyyn

Here is the code from my previous post.

============================================================
@ Talyyn

<blockquote><cite>&ldquo;I make the hypothesis that theists <strong>seem</strong> to be bad writers.&rdquo;</cite></blockquote>

Seem? Just seem? I think we have enough proof here on just these forums that this is no longer a hypothesis. This is a Full-Blown Theorem.

rmfr
============================================================

Here is the Formatting Codes page.

rmfr

Talyyn's picture
@arakish

@arakish

Thank you! The page is saved.

NewSkeptic's picture
@S&E

@S&E

Not to pile on, but is literacy still a goal of the education system?

From your post, I'm sadly assuming it is not.

doG's picture
Getting your point across in

Getting your point across in a succinct and to the point fashion, in two sentences...huh.

fucking shocking!

David Killens's picture
The OP likens the god

The OP likens the god/follower relationship as akin to a parent/child. Wrong, it is more like a psychotic and sadistic fighting dog breeder/dog relationship.

The next huge mistake is ownership of people. People are not owned, they are created by parents, hopefully loving and intelligent.

One just needs to observe animals in the wild. The parent raises the young one until it is capable of taking care of itself, and in many situations, that young one strikes off on it's own, to never see it's parents again. That is how a species survives, by propagating.

I child raised properly does love and respect it's parents. But that child should be raised so it becomes independent and free from the influence of the parents.

LogicFTW's picture
@OP

@OP

TL DR

It was too long and I did not read it. It felt like a wall of text. While I can definitely get long winded here, I try to break it up at least into segments.

Since I did not read it, I can give a boilerplate response:

There is far FAR! more highly compelling evidence that man made up god, then there is evidence that god made man (and everything else.)

Terraphon's picture
I'm not even going to read

I'm not even going to read this.

Un-formatted wall of text = nope.

Cognostic's picture
You didn't miss anything.

You didn't miss anything. Inane assertion after inane assertion, therefore God.

Terraphon's picture
@Cog

@Cog

Thanks for the TL;DR. That's what I figured it was.

I'm starting to think that these people mash all of their thoughts into a single, unformatted text-wall in an attempt to create misunderstanding and confusion, as well as to make it much more difficult for people to dissect their posts and arguments since it all flows together and squishes out the sides.

Like trying to stuff 40 pounds of shit into a 10 pound box.

In the end, it's all word salad and not worth the time it would take to read the thing.

Cognostic's picture
What I don't get is why they

What I don't get is why they bother coming onto a debate site. "God is real because I believe he is real, it feels right to me." Why? "He just is." Okay, fine. Go away, we have nothing to discuss. Why in the hell give us a bunch of senseless assertions and inane excuses? They just end up reinforcing the idea that there is no good evidence for their God.

Sheldon's picture
Brevity

Brevity
noun
concise and exact use of words in writing or speech.

Terraphon's picture
^^^

^^^

Attachments

Attach Image/Video?: 

Yes
Searching &amp; Exploring's picture
Hi, sorry for the unorganized

Hi, sorry for the unorganized text I posted. I myself am kind of going through an existential crisis, and the mixed-up, tangled text in this post which I made was a part of a personal blog-post which I made, where I just kind of throw random thoughts and feelings into. I will be honest and say that I have been battling a bit of psychosis type of mental health issues for the past 2 years, and such, I feel that I do not organize my thoughts as clearly as I used to before. Again, sorry for the unclear, unedited, unorganized, low grammar quality text.

I consider myself a bit more on the agnostic side of the spectrum at the moment. My point of the post was not to convince anyone that there is, or is not a God. Rather, my goal of the post was (besides being a personal blog-post) to get opinions on why it would or would not be "fair" to live under the authority of a God such as the Judaic "God". I myself am confused with the topic, which is why I came to ask for some opinions of others.

I will try to re-word the point I was trying to make in the post, although I cannot guarantee that it will be coherent or clear as you guys might want it to. Again, I am not trying to prove that there is a God, or that there is not one. I am simply writing about why I personally feel that the existence of a "supreme God" is morally wrong. I am not an expert at all on this topic, which is why I tried making a discussion for it.

Based on my observation of society, I think the view that most people have on "personal independence" is the following. That once a child grows up to be an independent adult, the parents of such person no longer hold any authority over that person or his/her things. With that being said, my point is to compare and contrast on why with a "God", religious societies do not adopt the same "graduation" from divine authority, as they do with parental authority.

Most monotheistic religions and their people believe that there is a God who is a supreme being who has authority over all of existence, including the people in it. With "God" being a "supreme" being, it means that all people are under "his" rule and authority forever, no questions asked. I ask, is such a way of life fair? Why do people graduate from their parental authority, but not from their religious one? Could it be that people just do not think about such questions enough, simply because they have yet to experience a real-life existence with their "God", where they would always be under their "God's" authority. If people were to experience such a life living with "God" on a day to day basis, maybe they would actually think having any type of "Unquestionable Authority" (AKA God) is unfair.

I guess I kind of am assuming a God in this scenario, but it is a hypothetical scenario which I am making. Again, my goal here is not to convince someone that there is or is not a "God". The goal of my post is to get opinions with explanations on why personally, others would think the "authority" of a "God" would be moral/fair or not. Sorry if this explanation did not make sense either, I will delete this whole post if asked to for incoherence. Thanks.

rat spit's picture
Psychotic, eh? Well. I think

Psychotic, eh? Well. I think there may only be enough room for one psycho on this board!

Kidding. But guess what? You belong to a special group of people. First you’re going to have crushing anxiety. Then you’re going to go through the most empty, vapid depresssion conceivable. God will abandon you to your SELF during this time.

Then, your thoughts will attempt to grasp at external reality for grounding. This will intrinsically lead to somatic delusions that will warp your mind.

You may remain in this delusion for a few months or a few years. It depends on your support system. But, have hope. You will come out of it. And then, guess what my friend? God will prove Him Self to YOU. You will not need to prove God. Satan and the OverLord will take care of that introverted disposition of yours.

But here’s my advise. Seek medical help. Don’t jump on any doctor’s prescription for anti psychotic medicine just yet. And believe me. Open your mouth and say “Gawwwd” - and they’ll prescribe you anti psychotics.

No. Get a benzodiazepine for the anxiety. And get an antidepressant for the *duh* depression. If it turns into psychosis after that - you’re fucked. Sorry, but your genetics and environment just fucked you in the ass, hard.

So, you’re gunna have to live it out. Don’t worry. The OverLord will take good care of you.

- rat spit

Pages

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.