The End Goal of Humanity and the Universe

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Cognostic's picture
OP: "Atheist Eschatology,"

OP: "Atheist Eschatology," death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.

NO SUCH THING. If you think there is a "Judgment, final destiny, or soul, you must offer evidence, We have had 2000 years of attempts and no evidence yet. Your assertion is ill formed. There is no Atheist Eschatology.

OP: @ " I could engage with atheists about their beliefs. "
There are hundreds of people here. How in the hell are you going to talk to each of them about their beliefs? That would literally take you years. Why not just focus on the one thing we, as atheists, all seem to agree on? Atheists do not believe theists have met their burden of proof when it comes to religious claims. Wouldn't you agree that that is much simpler?

OP: "I believe that God is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, just, merciful, and good in all of his ways."

Then your God does not exist. It is impossible to be both Just and merciful. Mercy is the suspension of Justice. You have created a logical fallacy that negates itself. You have negated the existence of the god you believe in with your own words.

Then your God does not exist. "God is good in all his ways." If that is the case, what God are we talking about? You will have to do a bit better at describing this god you refer to. Obviously it is not any of the known Gods. The Abrahamic God is a complete asshole who runs about killing innocent people in horrible ways throughout his book. Calling that monster Good is like praising Hitler for his efforts at population control.

So Before we can even get started, we need to know which god you are talking about and we need to have it actually exist without being self contradictory. Looking forward to your further explanation.

Grace Alone's picture
Hi Cognostic,

Hi Cognostic,

Thanks for your response, but it appears you have tried to hijack the conversation away from my original question. It was a simple question: why do you believe something that renders your existence vain?

Thank you

-Grace Alone

Cognostic's picture
What are you asserting I

What are you asserting I believe?
No one hijacked anything. You wrote a page and a half of bullshit with one assertion after the next. Why not simply post a question?

You asked: "Why do you believe something that renders your existence vain?"
I never considered my existence to be in vain, so why would you make such an assertion?

Grace Alone's picture
Hey Cognostic,

Hey Cognostic,

I gave my reasoning for that assertion. You have yet to refute it. How is your existence not vain when death without an afterlife is soon approaching you, and the life that you lived was lived in a universe with no mind behind it? No mind, no purpose. It's chaos. It's vanity.

-Grace Alone

Cognostic's picture
Vain,

Vain,
1. having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth.

I'm not the one calling your existence vain? Aren't you being just a bit hypocritical?

2. Death without an afterlife is soon approaching. We agree. So where does the vanity fit in?

3. @ "The life that you lived was lived in a universe with no mind behind it?"
Apparently we all live in a universe with no mind behind it. Minds do not exist without brains. At least no one has ever seen a mind without a brain. Do you know something the rest of us do not know? Do you think the universe has a brain? Can you point it out please?

4. @ "No mind, no purpose?" Hmmm? The leaves of a flower or tree will purposefully follow the sunlight during the day and yet they do this without a mind, Admittedly they have no brain either but they do have purpose and their actions are tied to their physical nature. Are you asserting that the stars and planets are the brain of the universe?

Do you imagine that if the universe actually had a mind with goals that you would play a part in it. You don't even count for a speck of dust in all that exists and now you want to add to that magical beings? It all sounds a bit silly to me.

Sheldon's picture
"It was a simple question:

"It was a simple question: why do you believe something that renders your existence vain?"

I think you mean overly simplistic question, as it firstly it implies we have a choice as to whether our lives have an ultimate purpose, and secondly uses a straw man claim that I don't accept and have never heard any atheist claim in that sense.

You may think your act is polished, but it's so commonplace and stupid it is beyond tedious.

If (human) life has an ultimate purpose beyond what we attach to it ourselves then demonstrate some evidence for your claim, and stop posing specious questions that use begging the question fallacies.

xenoview's picture
GA

GA
My life is not vain or empty. It has plenty of meaning.

Unlike you, I live free of the guilt of sin and fear of Hell.

Can you explain how your God can be both just and merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice.

Cognostic's picture
@ Atheist Eschatology (At

@ Atheist Eschatology (At best, you have created an oxymoron. It's a bit like Christian Intelligence.

noun
the part of theology concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind.

You are attempting to use a thermometer to measure the amount of water in a lake. If you want to ask a question you should probably be more specific. IE. "As an Atheist, what do you think happens at death." "As an Atheist, do you believe in any version of a life after death." "As an atheist, what do you think of the concept of 'soul?'"

Any specific question is going to get you more information than lumping a realm of religious concepts together, assuming they are relevant to atheists, and then asking for opinions. Your current form of questioning is so vague as to be foolish. It's like asking, what are the effects of sunlight. It would be insane to attempt to tackle this without being a bit more specific.

chimp3's picture
Quivering insecurity : "Oh!

Quivering insecurity : "Oh! The Universe may not have me in mind, which makes me meaningless !!" leads to:

Cosmic Narcissism: " The Universe would be meaningless without me in mind! " resulting in:

"Therefore God!" leading to:

Condescending Solopsism "I have so much more meaning and purpose than those meaningless (to me) atheists!" leading to:

"I am so much more secure now!"

Everybody has their favorite Teddy Bear to hug themseves to sleep by!

Grace Alone's picture
Hey Chimp3,

Hey Chimp3,

Interesting post... I never said you were meaningless. Everything is meaningful and has a purpose in God's universe. It's not a teddy bear, it's a reasonable thing to believe considering the fact that I actually exist. Is it crazy to think there is a purpose behind my existence outside of my own opinion?

-Grace Alone

Sheldon's picture
"Everything is meaningful and

"Everything is meaningful and has a purpose in God's universe. "

Evidence please.

"it's a reasonable thing to believe considering the fact that I actually exist."

Fallacious tautology. Circular reasoning that is also dangerously close to a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

"Is it crazy to think there is a purpose behind my existence outside of my own opinion?"

No, not crazy, just irrational as you can demonstrate no evidence for the belief, and now you're close to an argument from incredulity fallacy. Just because you find it impossible to believe life can exist without a deity doesn't make it true. You need to evidence your deity or it is naught but a superstition.

Cognostic's picture
We still have not defined

We still have not defined this thing you are calling God. In your last post to me you said it was a mind. Now it is a mind that has a universe. We know it is not a teddy bear but rather something reasonable. If it is reasonable and it is a mind then it must have a brain. All available reason we know of points to this conclusion.

Yes, you actually exist. You can have any purpose behind your existence that you like. That is one of the nice things about existing. So what makes you think this God thing of yours exists?

Cognostic's picture
https://www.youtube.com/watch
xenoview's picture
Grace alone

Grace alone

The bible is the claim, not the evidence.

There is not atheist worldview. All atheism is believing in zero gods.

What objective evidence do you have that your God is real?

Can you prove your God created the universe?

I'm sure your parents having sex is why your here.

Grace Alone's picture
Hey xenoview,

Hey xenoview,

Are you unable to think about the reason behind life and existence itself? That's what I'm talking about, not the reason I was birthed.
You are ignoring the question in my original post.

Thank you

-Grace Alone

Cognostic's picture
If you think there is a

If you think there is a reason behind life and existence please feel free to share what it is and what your evidence is for making the claim. If you are right, you will probably win a Nobel Prize.

At this point I don't think you even know what your original post said.

DEFINE YOUR GOD: How can anyone believe in something that has not yet been defined.

algebe's picture
@Grace alone: how will (or

@Grace alone: how will (or might) human history end

One possibility is a global war leading to our extinction. To avoid that we'll need to identify and eliminate the dark forces that divide us and blind us to the fundamental humanity that we all share. Right at the top of the list of those dark forces are Christianity and Islam.

Assuming that we can survive as a species, I expect that we will take control of our own evolution and dramatically enhance our minds and bodies. We will learn more and more about the nature of the universe and existence. Within a few million years we will spread out across our galaxy. We will grow beyond the insanity of allowing our potential to be limited by primitive and conflicting tribal superstitions.

Or we can sit on hard benches in cold stone churches with our eyes shut, minds closed, hands clasped, and buttocks clenched, trying to get a non-existent invisible sky-fairy to fix our problems.

Cognostic's picture
Every human being is part of

Every human being is part of a blue universe creating cosmic bunny. Though the race dies we live on as part of the creators. Like the hairs on a bunnies body we all have unique independence and yet remain a part of the whole. There is no death, just a change in matter and energy.

Grinseed's picture
@Grace Alone

@Grace Alone

"How will (or might) human history end?"

No-one knows. You might guess, but neither you, or I, or anyone else, knows for certain.

"What is the ultimate goal or purpose of a universe with no God?"

There is no stated absolute ultimate goal or purpose to this universe. And not just because there is no God.

So OK you got one thing right, you will believe that my answer is pessimistic. But its much more than that. It's honest.
Honest and brutal, but I am not responsible for the fact of the universe. I am just an accidental happy participant. Its an amazing place, right?

However your assessment of the alternative, the optimistic, is not only wrong and uninformed it is also really extremely pessismistic itself. No fellow atheist I know, or read, has ever claimed any desire for immortality or wished "...to float about in a cold and impersonal universe." Most atheists I know would be happy to stay right here on planet earth without destroying it and live out their natural allotted time. But if you are picturing some sci-fi galaxy travelling future, how do you know it will be "cold and impersonal", it is likely to be a more humanising experience for mankind because of the hostility of deep space. Its more likely to be a rich, rewarding and uplifting experience, which allows us to display all our best humane qualities, if only because we will need to support each other in that cruel enviroment. But as I say, no-one knows. To repeat myself from other threads, as Yogi Berra said,
'Making predictions can be really hard, particularly about the future".

"Immortality is very unlikely to be achieved within our lifetimes, and so what good does that eschatology do for you if you will be nonexistent by the time it comes to fruition?"

I dont think immortality for our species is even possible. I am struck with your obession with immortality. Despite your beleif that you already have life immortal after death, why do you pick and poke about supposed fears and desires of others for immortality? You are projecting.

How do you know your religion's promise of immortality will be a bearable, much less, desirable thing?
Revelations has it beleivers will spend all eternity singing and praising god around his throne, and no coffee breaks.

And you might not have any sense of self as you have now, as according to Psalms 146:4 (my comments in brackets) "His breath goeth forth (the breath of life returns to god), he returneth to his earth (back to the dust he was created from); in that very day his thoughts perish (your ego/wishes/hopes/desires/plans cease to exist)."

So, as far as your claim to atheists, after death, no longer existing or having relevance to the universe it doesnt seem that your desired immortality offers anything better.

"It may sound noble to spend your existence for the benefit of those in the future who may achieve the optimistic end, but what does nobility matter in a universe with no God?"

It IS noble to serve the benefit of other HUMANS no matter if there is a god or not, or what time span they live in and for whatever hopeful end might be attained.

What nobility is there to serve a god merely to satisfy the obsession for an undefined immortality and to allay the ego's terrified expectation of non-existence?

"Nobility can't save you. Humanity can't save you. You can't save you."

Save us from what? Death?! Nothingness?
This is what theists morbidly fear.
It is what atheists have already dealt with.
And no I am not forced to believe my life is of little importance without your god, I think it immensely important, but I have long ago accepted it is important really only to me and perhaps those who love or know me.
You seem pathologically obsessed with your own mortality. It wont do you any good to wish for life everlasting. Dead is dead. And in my case, me, all my thoughts hopes and aspirations will be lost within a generation or two, unless my progeny produces a keen family genealogist.

"Do you want to exist?"

I exist now. I am making the most of this precious incredible experience while I can. I dont bother with immortality, I strive to live long and prosper now.

"If not, then die now."

How nice. You obviously have never done work for Lifeline's suicide prevention services. Such an impact you would have made.

"Why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?"

I might ask the same of you.

Cheers.

Tin-Man's picture
@Grace Alone Re: "So I ask

@Grace Alone Re: "So I ask you this: do you want to exist? If not, then die now. If so, then why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?"

(I am writing this reply before reading any other posts, because I do not want my answer influenced by the remarks of others.)

For starters..... Bwaaaaaaa-haaaaaa-haaaaaa!..... *wiping tears from eyes*.... Wow! Thank you so much! After the day I have had, I really needed that laugh!.... Phew!..... *chuckle-snort*.... *still giggling*.... Holy moly, that was a great sermon, Mr. Grace. You should be a televangelist and make a few million dollars from the poor and gullible. Oh, and I am incredibly skeptical about your claim of being a "former atheist", because it is obvious you have ZERO clue about what atheism is. (A little hint: Atheism does not have a collective "world view.") But, hey, it's your story. Tell it however you want. Anyway, now that I have recovered from the much needed laughter, please allow me to address your "question".

Re: "Do you want to exist?"... Well, duh! I am sitting here typing a reply to your hilarious OP, am I not? If I did not want to exist, then I have had plenty of opportunities over the years to check out if I had wanted to do so. Hell, for that matter, there have been countless people over the years who have actually tried to cut my life short without my permission. (A few I convinced otherwise and/or interrupted their plans. Other times I just got plain lucky.) Yet, here I be. Still alive and kickin'. And happy for every breath I still take. By the way, what a bizarre question. Condescend much?

Re: "If not, then die now." Gee, how very sweet of you. But I have plans for tomorrow, and I simply cannot cancel them. Thanks for the offer, though. Speaking of dying now, if you truly believe in heaven and cannot wait to get there and live in eternal bliss with your beloved Sky Daddy, then why are you still here? How does that old saying go? "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." I happen to know many, many Christians who are waaaaay more afraid of death than I have ever been. Just sayin'....

Re: "If so, then why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?" You certainly are quite a presumptuous little sh-.... er, uh, individual, aren't you? Aside from the fact you do not know me (or anybody else on this site, for that matter), what makes you think my life is empty and vain? Oh, and you have it backwards, by the way. It is NOT "what I believe in". It is what I do NOT believe in. Namely, I do not believe in any god or gods. Pretty simple. Otherwise, you have absolutely NO IDEA what else I may or may not believe. And I hate to rain on your parade, but my life happens to be fuller and happier now than it has ever been. And much of that happiness is due to the fact that I finally escaped from the insidious grasp that religion had on me for a majority of my life. My heart and mind are more free and more at ease now than I have ever felt before.

Now, surely, this is a small summary of what I think about your OP, as any atheist can see through your little sermon like a pane of crystal clear glass. And I would expand a bit more, but I am itching to read how others on here are tearing your post to shreds. Curiosity is killing me. Toodles...

(Oh, and welcome to the AR.)... *smooch*....

Mutorc S'yriah's picture
So I ask you this: do you

So I ask you this: do you want to exist? If not, then die now. If so, then why believe in something that renders your existence empty and vain?

Thanks for taking the time to read, and I look forward to reading your answers.

-Grace Alone
______________________________________________________________

It's not in my power to simply die now. Your question contains an assumption, to which I do not subscribe. I think I'd be correct in saying that the vast majority of atheists don't find their existences empty and vain. Some may, but the majority, I feel confident in saying, do not.

On the other hand, they do not turn to something outside of themselves, to tell them how their lives ought to be, or how to have fullness and fruitfulness.

On the contrary, many of the most productive people in this world are atheists, and their endeavours give their lives fullness and meaning. Certainly they will die, but their living will not have been in vain, since they will have made contributions to the world which are positive, and continue to have valuable and positive influence in the world even though they have died. They leave behind a legacy with those attributes.

All atheists can do this to some degree or another, some in very small ways, some in ways impressive and significant. We do not all have the skills to be great scientists, great doctors, great leaders etc. But we can all try to be good people, who will leave the world no worse off, and hopefully better off in some way, than had they not existed.

There is no need for a god: (a) to make this possible; and (b) satisfactory - to us. And no, I feel no need for this grand plan, this supposed divine love or approval, or supposed divine guidance, (nay: this divine trap).

Cheers,
Mu, (atheist).

P.S. I thought I'd just add this: do you realise, that many atheists will be insulted by your saying that their lives are empty and vain, Grace alone. As I said, the idea that out lives are empty and vain, is yours, not ours.

Grace Alone's picture
Hey everyone,

Hey everyone,

I apologize for the way that my original post was written. Attacks of my intelligence and character aside (all is forgiven), here is my question restated in a way that I hope will not offend:

As an atheist (one who does not believe in a God or gods), what, in your view, is the end goal of human history and the universe, and how does this end goal justify your existence?

Thank you all for your time

-Grace Alone

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Grace Alone

@ Grace Alone

Politeness alone ,never mind the conventions on this forum, would dictate that you note that you edited your OP from its original form. I would further suggest that you edit your post commencing "I apologise" and repeat your original post in full so that later readers can see what we all responded to, and make their own judgements.

( duplicate post so it does not get lost in the thread)

Tin-Man's picture
@Grace Alone Re: "Attacks of

@Grace Alone Re: "Attacks of my intelligence and character aside (all is forgiven)..."

Aw, gee. You say that as if we care that you forgive us. Again, you presume much.

Sapporo's picture
Grace Alone: Hey everyone,

Grace Alone: Hey everyone,

I apologize for the way that my original post was written. Attacks of my intelligence and character aside (all is forgiven), here is my question restated in a way that I hope will not offend:

As an atheist (one who does not believe in a God or gods), what, in your view, is the end goal of human history and the universe, and how does this end goal justify your existence?

Thank you all for your time

-Grace Alone

Human history and the universe are inanimate things, they do not have goals. Your question is irrelevant to how I justify my existence. I do not need to justify my existence.

It seems that with Christianity, adherents need to justify their existence by a belief in the existence of god, and thus they do not have a purpose in themselves. According to @Grace Alone, atheists have no purpose, but were created by an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenovolent god. A clear contradiction.

chimp3's picture
GA: "As an atheist (one who

GA: "As an atheist (one who does not believe in a God or gods), what, in your view, is the end goal of human history and the universe, and how does this end goal justify your existence?

I don't need to "justify" my existence to someone that assumes my life is meaningless without their Sky Fairy , or anyone else for that matter. I am not a believer because I don't believe the believers. It is as simple as that.

Sheldon's picture
"As an atheist (one who does

"As an atheist (one who does not believe in a God or gods), what, in your view, is the end goal of human history and the universe, and how does this end goal justify your existence?"

It's still a specious question based on a begging the question fallacy. What objective evidence can you demonstrate that life or the universe has an "end goal"? Atheism doesn't claim life and the universe has no purpose it simply disbelieves in a deity. You are using an informal fallacy to pose a question in order to imply atheism carries a burden of proof, and ironically I have to repeat myself here, that repetition of your question won't make it valid.

Cognostic's picture
Why are you assuming human

Why are you assuming human history has an end goal? All life, humans included, tends to want to survive. Life feeds on life and life gives life to life to perpetuate life. How is that not obvious.

Now the Universe has a goal as well? I suppose the goal of the universe is to keep expanding. Keep creating stars and planets. Simply continue doing exactly what it is doing. If that is not the goal of the universe, wouldn't it be moving in the wrong direction and therefore making a big mistake?

Why does existence need to be justified? "1. having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason. "the doctors were justified in treating her"

I am justified by the fact that I am here. A sperm cell fertilized an ova. That is a good and legitimate reason for being born. In fact, I would assert that anyone who was born without a sperm cell fertilizing an ova does not exist.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Grace Alone

@ Grace Alone

Politeness alone ,never mind the conventions on this forum, would dictate that you note that you edited your OP from its original form. I would further suggest that you edit your post commencing "I apologise" and repeat your original post in full so that later readers can see what we all responded to, and make their own judgements.

Tin-Man's picture
@Grace Alone Re: OP

@Grace Alone Re: OP

Yeah, dude! What Old Man said! Not cool how you changed that OP! Now some of our responses don't make any sense to anybody who didn't see the original post you made. Pretty damn lame. If that is your example of "Christian honesty and integrity", then I am definitely better off being an atheist.

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