Evidence There is No God?

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chimp3's picture
Evidence There is No God?

Recently a believer posted a counter-argument to atheists claim that there is no evidence for god. In a nutshell , the burden of proof was placed on the atheist to disprove the existence of god before ...... What? Not believing? That places this old heathen in a peculiar position. Do I have to disprove the existence of Allah before not becoming a Muslim? Yahweh before not being Jewish? Krishna before not becoming a devotee? Thor before not getting a rune tattoo? The demand to disprove before accepting is illogical!

Of course , this reasoning leads us to accepting other irrational claims and a state of complete gullibility. David Icke's Lizard Faced New World Order? Do I have to disprove that? A cult leader such as David Koresh? Marshall Applewhite?
Why do I have to disprove before not believing?

If you are claiming I have to disprove your god before accepting your claims then disprove the thousands of other gods that sit aside yours in the pantheon of fairy tales called religion.

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Seenyab4's picture
This post actually leads me

This post actually leads me to another question. Can we disprove Christianity and the bible as a whole? After all, most of the stories in the Old Testament are historically inaccurate.

chimp3's picture
Disproving the Bible involves

Disproving the Bible involves disproving claims that science can refute (creationism) , archeological evidence that Moses did not exist, geological evidence that no world wide flood occurred, etc. Claims that Jesus rose from the dead are not disprovable but since we know physical death is irreversible there is no reason to believe he did.
I will also go out on a limb and say that if a claim can not be subjected to falsification then that is evidence for that claims falsehood. "You can not prove there is no god" is evidence that there is no god.

Seenyab4's picture
Ah, I see what you're saying.

Ah, I see what you're saying. It is an interesting thing, religion. It leads men to believe in those falsehoods even today.

Harry Truman's picture
Who says this? It is all 100%

Who says this? It is all 100% correct.

Sir Random (Tieler) 's picture
"It is all 100% correct."

"It is all 100% correct."

That's a giant leap of faith if I've ever seen one.

Greensnake's picture
It depends on what you mean

Seenyab4,

It depends on what you mean by "disprove." If by that you mean making a really strong case with no serious rebuttals in sight or anticipated (as might be the case in frontier areas where knowledge is thin), then it has already been done. By no stretch of sane imagination can that mess, called the Bible, be attributed to a divine being. It never rises above Iron Age thinking, complete with the usual errors. The uncanny parallels between the whole Jesus thing and pagan savior gods and sun gods strongly suggests that Christianity is hardly original. Then, there is the near total lack of evidence that Jesus, even as a man, existed. There were a number of Jesus-like messiahs, both before and after Jesus, so it's not impossible that Jesus was yet another.

In my thread "Science Gives God The Boot" (08/07/2016 18:47) I gave one powerful argument based on the principles of good reasoning and scientific progress. I argue that careful thinking does not support a supernatural god. To get there you have to violate the rules of good reasoning.

valiya s sajjad's picture
hi Greensnake

hi Greensnake

Can you give me a synopsis of your 'Science gives god boot' argument... so that i can perhaps send you my thoughts on it.

Greensnake's picture
hi valiya:

hi valiya:

You should probably read the post. I can repost it if you wish. In a nut shell, if we follow the best principles of reasoning we don't arrive at "God." Good reasoning must begin with what we know best and then work toward the unknown. Saying that God is above natural laws is not a valid defense since one cannot use God's magic powers before demonstrating that such powers exist. (Suppose I said that my pet cat can run 200 miles per hour! You laugh and point out that the principles of science make that impossible. But, I claim that my cat transcends those principles which makes your argument no good. However, there being no demonstration of such abilities by any animal, that claim is actually a liability. It runs contrary to what we actually know. My claim, then, would not be reasonable.)

When the choice is between rank speculation (supernatural powers) and the best tested knowledge we have about our universe (natural principles) then the rational choice is obvious. Short of additional evidence, that's the best conclusion we can reach. God's claimed powers (established by pure speculation) contradict what we know best by test about the universe, and without startling new evidence we must rule God out if we are to be rational.

valiya s sajjad's picture
Hi GreenSnake

Hi GreenSnake

Thanks for taking the trouble to sum it all up for me again. Here is my thoughts on it.

You said: “Good reasoning must begin with what we know best and then work toward the unknown.”

I agree with you fully. It’s by doing exactly this that I arrive at god. Let me explain how. When I see any arrangement of many parts in a highly specified pattern so as to enable a function, I attribute planning to it, i.e. design. This is the reasoning based on what we know best about the way the world works.

If you found a scrabble board with coins lying haphazardly, we know that this could have happened by accident (some child spilling all the coins on the board or something like that). But imagine you saw the coins arranged in a manner of forming meaningful words… then you wouldn’t have the slightest doubt that someone had arranged it using intelligence and planning… because there is specified complexity there… many parts (coins) arranged in highly specified order (spelling) to attain a function (meaning).

That being the case, why should I suspend this solid reasoning when it comes to nature. Why should I assume that somehow the massive amounts of specified complexity in nature just came about by chance, when we wouldn’t attribute chance to designs in our everyday life that are not even a fraction of what we see in nature.

You said: “Saying that God is above natural laws is not a valid defense since one cannot use God's magic powers before demonstrating that such powers exist.”

Once again I agree with you. But my inference from nature is stops short of God. I just know that there is a planning and intelligence behind it… I have no clue who that agent is. But I find that science as an epistemology is ill equipped to give me any knowledge about that intelligent agent… and so I turn to other epistemologies (religion)… I find god there. I know that would raise a lot of questions… but I will not preempt you… I will answer them when you ask them.

You said: “Suppose I said that my pet cat can run 200 miles per hour! You laugh and point out that the principles of science make that impossible. But, I claim that my cat transcends those principles which makes your argument no good.”

That example doesn’t quite sit well with the argument for God. In your example, we know everything about the cat… and based on that knowledge we are examining you claims. But in the case for god, it works the reverse way. We do not know the agent in question… but we see his abilities (creative power). And based on that we try to figure out what kind of an entity would be capable of it.

Greensnake's picture
Hi valiya:

Hi valiya:

What if the "entity" capable of this "design" is evolution? Aren't you overlooking a very important alternative, one that is actually in harmony with the observed facts?

The central problem to your entire approach, valiya, is a failure to understand the real reason that allows us to conclude that an article came about by intelligent design. It must be out of place in nature. Its level of complexity does not answer that question. (We have no way to say that a random bush on a hillside had to have an intelligent designer, because there is no way to show that it is out of place in nature.) We are falsely led to think that complexity is the key because so many of our inventions (that are obviously out of place in nature) exhibit complexity.

My recent posts on the thread "Viruses Disprove Intelligent Design" go into more detail. Why don't we shift this discussion to that thread so as to consolidate matters?

Kataclismic's picture
"I just know that there is a

"I just know that there is a planning and intelligence behind it… I have no clue who that agent is."

Translation:
I don't know anything, I just follow my religion blindly.

chimp3's picture
Gods cannot be disproven.

Gods cannot be disproven. That is not intellectual laziness. There is simply no way to disprove something so immaterial and nonexistent. I would say to John6IXBreezy that you could not possibly disprove the existence of Krishna even if you desired too. To place that burden on atheists is fallacious.

Hawk Flint's picture
God's can't be disproven, and

God's can't be disproven, and gods can't be proven, yes. But if there was proof, like receiving a vision, would we be called schizophrenic? Would we be called liars? Insane? Yes. We would. And there are people who lie about seeing visions, I'm not saying that they're all telling the truth (like, seriously do a search on YouTube for people going to heaven and/or hell. You'll find contradicting stories about the two.). I don't expect atheists to disprove G-d or other "gods," as I know it's not possible. I simply make a point that asking a question like that is rather dumb or illogical.

MCD's picture
Wow. So you agree and

Wow. So you agree and acknowledge that the existence of gods cannot be proven. Good for you.

So, this brings up a question: Why do YOU believe in anything without proof. The time to believe that something is true is when there is good evidence.

Algebe's picture
Nobody can prove or disprove

Nobody can prove or disprove the existence of god without first defining what god is. If I were to ask people here to disprove the existence of elephants, I would define an elephant as a large, grey mammalian quadruped with an elongated proboscis and big ears. Then we could look for evidence of things that match that definition. But what is this god that we are challenged to disprove?

What can be proved conclusively is that belief in god has many harmful effects and zero positive effects for individuals and humanity in general.

Hawk Flint's picture
Um...was I the the believer

Um...was I the the believer mentioned? And I never thought that you HAVE to believe in G-d if you can't disprove His existence.
[Lol I agreed with myself ]

chimp3's picture
No Hawkflint! You were not

No Hawkflint! You were not the one. No matter, it is an interesting topic. Jump on in!

chimp3's picture
Judaism claims to be the true

Judaism claims to be the true religion of the God of Abraham , Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies. Judaism denies the Christian claims. Islam on the other hand claims Allah , all along, has been the God of Abraham and that Jesus, Moses, and Noah were worshiping Allah. Allah was the actual God who spoke through the burning bush and who Christ instructed us to bow before. Three separate claims upon the fairy tale and yet no way to definitively prove one over the other two. What possible methodology can finally win that blood soaked debate?

Seeker's picture
Abraham didn't have a

Abraham didn't have a religion. There WAS no religion, just a way of life. Shared by all peoples but the Hamites (expecially Caananites, the bad seed) who didn';t want to observe norms of civilized behavior. Christianity was blanked by Constantine because people were following "the prophet" by keeping Jewish laws of cleanliness (you live a lot longer, etc) that he broke the first commandment, made Yeshua into God and declared himself a saint. As for Allah, don't get me started but you can refer to my post in another article where the roots of Islam are laid out. Nothing new under the sun here folks. Move Along.

chimp3's picture
BSBeliever: That is what you

BSBeliever: That is what you say.

mykcob4's picture
Abraham DID have a religion.

Abraham DID have a religion. He believed in a god and guided his people to believe in a god. That IS a religion.

chimp3's picture
Abraham never existed. He is

Abraham never existed. He is a mythological figure.

Charvak's picture
@ John

@ John

I spent a Day in a cave in India where the true creator came to me. He called himself Lucifer. He told me that pure evil named Jehovah has tricked mankind into following him. The evil jehovah tricked Some bloke Jesus into getting himself Killed at the hands of humans so that by his blood and sacrifice he could rule over mankind.

The only way is to reject this evil and his 10 commandments of sin and evil worship.

Lord Satan asked me to pen his 10 commandments that are true and eternal.

1. Thou shalt look both ways before crossing a street.
2. Thou shalt Knock on the door before entering a room.
3. Thou shalt wash your hands after relieving Thyself.
4. Thou shalt prevent global warming and reduce thy carbon footprint and also deforestation.
5. Thou shalt be polite in thy speech to your fellow human and kind in thy touch to other animals.
6. Thou shalt not discriminate between man, woman and transgender.
7. Thou shall not interfere in two adult consenting individuals sexual preferences.
8. Thou shall not sexually harass any individual.
9. Thou shall not predate on children.
10. Thou shall be generous and help your fellow individual.

As proof he has asked me to relate his words to you so that you may know the truth.

Do you not see that he ignited a fire in the heavens and lo an explosion was the beginning of your universe.

On a tiny planet of a medium sized star in the universe did he chose to lay the foundations of your existence.

By his wish did the first forms of life thrive until they evolved to beings such as you, yet do not have pride so high as lucifer almighty so as to assume that you may be the only life in the universe for as large is the universe and as large is the heart of satan know his power can birth more species than you can imagine.

You are evolved animals.

Be humbled that you are not the centre of his universe but that your planet revolves your sun.

By the way your earth is Geocentric and not flat.

Do not disobey the prophets I have sent before you Darwin, Mykob4, Greensnake, Chimp3, CyberLN, Pragmatic, and so on to all nations.

You must forever be subservient to the great prophet charvak and obey him.

Pray so that you may be spared Oblivion

...................

Now that I have made this claim, I believe it will all my heart. I have experienced the true god. The light bringer. I know its true...

@ John the burden is on you to disprove my religion.

CyberLN's picture
What lovely commandments lord

What lovely commandments lord satan provided us!

devout christian's picture
there is no way that the

there is no way that the atheist agnostic can prove that god doesnt exist, atheist have been trying fervently for years but to no avail they have used philosophy science and still no credible answer given.atheism is a empty vacuum its nihilist you only have naturalist explanantions for life while leaving out the spiritual component.

Sir Random (Tieler) 's picture
"atheist have been trying

"atheist have been trying fervently for years but to no avail "

And Religion has been trying for at least a MILLENNIUM, and still has not proved its god(s).

devout christian's picture
jesus christ was god in the

jesus christ was god in the flesh he was without sin and died for you and me on that all wooden cross.and you my friend will bow from hell to jesus christ i am as certain as that like the air that i breathe.

Algebe's picture
"you my friend will bow from

"you my friend will bow from hell to jesus christ i am as certain as that like the air that i breathe."

That kind of gloating about other people burning in hell is a typical Christian attitude. I think my road to atheism began when I was about 10. A boy from my class fell out of a tree and was killed. A girl in our class, a Jehovah's Witless, told us that he was burning in hell because he wasn't a JW. She was just parotting what her parents had told her. I was profoundly upset. Unlike self-righteous, gloating, holier-than-thou Christians, I have empathy. Other people's suffering upsets me deeply. If heaven is full of Christians, send me to hell.

Greensnake's picture
Spoken like a true fanatic,

skeptical christian,

Spoken like a true fanatic, one of millions that exists in this world! Each is certain of their religion, as certain as you, and they (and you) are far from the truth. There is no fool like a religious fool! (Note that I'm not saying that all religious people are fools, but when they do go off the deep end they are really spectacular sights.)

I find it interesting that you picture Jesus in such a vengeful light.

Charvak's picture
Skeptical Christian I urge

Skeptical Christian I urge you to see the light (& Lightbringer).Accept Lord lucifer as thy Lord and saviour into your arms and reject the evil jehovah and the imposter jesus christ or else your soul shall be lost to oblivion. You shall be erased from existence. That is commandment of God Satan.

See how that feels..... You forget ... Do unto others as you would have others do unto you...

Don't preach here, we are all well versed in religious literature. Debate, Converse, It is not for you to judge us and award punishment nor shall we accept such from your fictional friend.

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