Hypothetical For Atheists

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Sapporo's picture
When a theist believes god

When a theist believes god tells them to do something, their perception is always going to be subjective. When I follow my conscience, I know my perception is fallible, which influences my actions. However, in your case, you don't seem to acknowledge the possibility that your perception is fallible.

Not only do you not follow your own conscience, you follow any outside influence you believe to be god. Ergo, whenever you determine a voice to be god, you are essentially acting as though your perception is infallible.

Thus, you have no rationale to stop you from from an action, no matter how immoral.

In my case, I refrain from doing actions that I believe are immoral, because I believe them to be immoral, and I do actions that I believe are good, because I believe they are good. God plays no role in that whatsoever.

Maketakunai's picture
Recently, I mentioned Romans

Recently, I mentioned Romans 9 to Object of Wrath in another thread... This conversation makes me think of that one. Here are the verses that relate to my questions to you:

"6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

So, my first question is simply this. If God tells you to kill a child, but that you will be doomed to Hell whether you obey Him or not, would you kill the child on your own or force God to remove your free will and kill the child Himself using you basically as a puppet?

And 2 follow-up questions:

1. Why do you imagine an all-knowing, all powerful, necessarily good, creator "God" would create a child only to murder it in the first place?

2. Do you really believe that a god who condemns people for eternity whether they willingly follow his instructions or not is worthy of worship?

Terminal Dogma's picture
Dang, you religious zealots

Dang, you religious zealots are fucked up people. Morally vacuums, robotic worship drones, no wonder you are so easy to manipulate...powerful people value your stupidity for their own advancement.

myusernamekthx's picture
"Dang, you religious zealots

"Dang, you religious zealots are fucked up people."

You're just as zealous and your moral values are completely subjective.

Sapporo's picture
myusernamekthx: You're just

myusernamekthx: You're just as zealous and your moral values are completely subjective.

Unless you are omnipotent, your moral values are also subjective.

myusernamekthx's picture
"Unless you are omnipotent,

"Unless you are omnipotent, your moral values are also subjective."

Not if my values adhere to God's.

So do you believe mathematics is subjective?

Terminal Dogma's picture
Yes the objects of maths are

Yes the objects of maths are subjective like morals are.

Sapporo's picture
Peace Blossom: "Unless you

Petal Blossom: "Unless you are omnipotent, your moral values are also subjective."

Not if my values adhere to God's.

So do you believe mathematics is subjective?

But you have no way of knowing if you values adhere to god's, because you not all-knowing. And your view that god is objective is itself a subjective belief.

Mathematics is objective because it is internally consistent, for example 2 is always twice the value of 1, based on the definition of numbers.

If you compare it to a moral value such as "Thou shall not kill": as long as each word has a strict definition, it is objective in that sense. But in the sense of being recognized as an absolutely standard of behavior, then no, it is not an objective value, because not everyone agrees that is a value that everyone should follow.

Terminal Dogma's picture
All morals are subjective...

All morals are subjective....especially the arbitrary morals dictated from an imaginary god. They are the most subjective.

Sheldon's picture
"your moral values are

"your moral values are completely subjective."

So are yours, as are all religious people. It's a lie theists have access to objective morality.

Sapporo's picture
Fitting to mention the oft

Fitting to mention the oft-quoted Steven Weinberg here:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg

myusernamekthx's picture
"Religion is an insult to

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

How would "if my conscience tells me to rape and kill children, then so be it" fit in?

Sapporo's picture
You don't even follow your

myusernamekthx: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

How would "if my conscience tells me to rape and kill children, then so be it" fit in?

You don't even follow your own conscience. You just follow what someone else tells you to do, even if you think it is immoral, even if it involves killing and raping children.

Some theists say that without god, they would have no reason to do good. But you have already revealed that even with god, you would kill and rape children. I could never kill and rape children, because I believe it is immoral to do so. Whether or not god exists does not change that.

Jared Alesi's picture
You're a twisted piece of

You're a twisted piece of shit aren't you? You would do anything, no matter how heinous, if you heard voices in your head? Who says you're getting those commands from God? Even if you were, what makes you think that God, an infinitely powerful being, needs your puny pathetic self to get basic shit done? If God wants something, let him do it! And if God is so angry with me for liking men, he can either get fucked or do something about it. The God you depict here is just a lazy, whiny piece of shit, and you're no better for following him. Honestly, how can you be this stupid and still remember to breathe?

Sheldon's picture
Jared Alesi "You're a twisted

Jared Alesi "You're a twisted piece of shit aren't you? Honestly, how can you be this stupid and still remember to breathe?"

Well, he has been quiet for a while...

Sheldon's picture
"How would "if my conscience

"How would "if my conscience tells me to rape and kill children, then so be it" fit in?"

Does your conscience tell you such actions are morally acceptable? Doesn't your conscience, and moral outlook in any way encompass the idea that you should not cause harm and suffering?

The Bible after all, again and again shows a deity for whom none of these acts is a problem morally. A deity who both causes directly, and indirectly encourages and endorses such actions from its chosen favourites.

This discussion would be helped if you had even the most basic grasp of morality, or the complex dichotomies that underpin moral reasoning.

From Rwanda to Serbia through to nazism genocide and ethnic cleansing are nearly always committed by those who claim to have god on their side.

Sheldon's picture
Thu, 05/10/2018 - 01:10

Thu, 05/10/2018 - 01:10 (Reply to #22)Permalink
myusernamekthx
myusernamekthx's picture
"If god told you to kill a child, would you do it?"

Of course. I'd be stupid not to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Case closed, your religious beliefs have made you an amoral automaton, a robot with no concept of right or wrong. Seek help, and start accepting that you and you alone are responsible for your actions and decisions..

aperez241's picture
mysuernamekthx,

mysuernamekthx,

If god told you to kill a child, would you do it?"

Of course. I'd be stupid not to.

Appalling!

Bad people will do bad things and good people will do good things. To have good people doing bad things... you need religion.

It shows you have no moral of your own.

Diotrephes's picture
myusernamekthx,

myusernamekthx,

"If god told you to kill a child, would you do it?"
Of course. I'd be stupid not to."

The Old Testament writers included a story about that. They had the Yahweh character say that he told the dummies to sacrifice their kids to see if they were really that stupid. The point is that the dummies should have told Yahweh to go screw himself but they were too stupid to do it.

Remember, accordng to the fairy tale when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they became just as smart as Yahweh on this issue. So the dummies shold have know that it was evil to kill their kids just because someone told them to do it.

Maybe you should go have several more meals from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Tin-Man's picture
@myusername Re: ""If god

@myusername Re: ""If god told you to kill a child, would you do it?" Of course. I'd be stupid not to."

Wow..... I mean just..... wow..... *jaw dropping to floor*

Dude, you should seek some serious psychiatric help. I honestly hope you are nowhere near the state in which I live. You are a disturbed individual. Personally, I would tell your god or person or animal or any other imagined entity to go fuck itself if it were stupid enough to "command me" to kill a child. And I do not give a good damn horse shit how fucking powerful that person/entity might be. For one, it that being is supposedly so incredibly powerful, then it certainly does not need ME to do its dirty work. And, more importantly, (and here I feel the need to repeat myself) it.... can... go... fuck...itself for even suggesting that I do such a thing. Furthermore, circumstances allowing, you can bet your sweet ass I would be doing everything within my power to try to save the child should the entity or anybody else try to harm it. I do hope I have made myself clear about how I feel about this totally demented god you seem to follow. Again, seek therapy, dude. Seriously. All joking aside. It seems you have some very disturbing issues.

Sidewalk's picture
And this, ladies and gents,

In reply to “I’d kill a child if god told me too, it’d be stupid not to”

And this, ladies and gents, is why religion is so dangerous.

Because the fact is, whether you have “faith” or not, there is most likely no God. Someone who refuses to be guided by his own morals is a slave to whatever he perceives as the words of god, whether from a messed up fantasy, or some external human influence.

In fact, morals by themselves are an entirely human concept created by civilization to maintain order, individual of religion. There is empathy in the wild, but no morals.

You sir need to rethink your beliefs. Sincerely.

arakish's picture
And can I get an Halleluya

And can I get an Halleluya and an Amen on that.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
You can, but it's Hallelujah.

You can, but it's Hallelujah.

Qu@si's picture
"but it's Hallelujah."

"but it's Hallelujah."

i thought its hakuna matata!

Sheldon's picture
https://youtu.be/nbY_aP-alkw

https://youtu.be/nbY_aP-alkw

I believe I recognise the voice of Nathan Lane in there?

Sheldon's picture
Your deity doesn't seem to

Your deity doesn't seem to have a problem with rape according to your bible, why do you?

The ten commandments don't mention it directly or paedophilia after all.

I view those acts as cruelly barbaric and pernicious, your deity doesn't claim to in your bible. Even endorsing slavery and the sex trafficking of virgin girls after their people were ethnically cleansed.

If your deity told you that the rape of a child was ok would you disagree with it? If so then you clearly can base your moral decisions on your own reason, and so don't need divine diktat that turns you into an amoral automaton.

What if your deity told you to murder a child the way it did Abraham would you be prepared to do it?

If you could stop the rape of a child would you do so? Why then does your deity do nothing to stop it?

Sheldon's picture
myusernamekthx "So if your

myusernamekthx "So if your conscience tells you to rape children, then so be it?

And what if a maximally great being, who is your creator, told you that conduct is wrong, would you listen?"

I wouldn't need a deity to tell me it is wrong to rape a child, unlike a great many theists of course, as with the endemic child rape committed by catholic priests.

Terminal Dogma's picture
TBH this hypothetical god

TBH this hypothetical god gets more retarded with every post.

Sheldon's picture
Well I've always accepted the

Well I've always accepted the well evidenced premise that people create deities in their own image..

Algebe's picture
@myusernamekthx: So if your

@myusernamekthx: So if your conscience tells you to rape children, then so be it?

Why does just about every Christian who comes here end up talking about raping children? I'm sick of hearing this disgusting idea. Is it something they teach you in Sunday school or seminary, or does Christianity naturally attract people with child rape fantasies?

Either way, I find you and your stone age sky fairy too vile for words. Leave the children alone.

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