Most convincing NDE of all time. I want skeptic atheist opinions

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Russian-Tank's picture
Most convincing NDE of all time. I want skeptic atheist opinions

I feel that if we do have a soul, this NDE describes it best. Perhaps you all have heard of it. Please give me your input, I want honest opinions about this amazing testimony. It sounds great at the surface, could this prove the existence of a soul?

The Case of Al Sullivan. Bruce Grayson.
Al Sullivan, then a 56-year-old truck driver, almost died on January 18, 1998. A few days earlier he had experienced an irregular heartbeat and was rushed to the hospital for diagnostic testing, during which one of his coronary arteries became blocked. Doctors were forced to administer an emergency quadruple bypass surgery. It was at this time that Sullivan felt himself leave his body. In an account two years later, Sullivan would describe what he came to think of as—and some researchers came to label as—his near-death experience, or NDE:

I began my journey in an upward direction and found myself in a very thick, black, billowy smoke-like atmosphere ... I rose to an amphitheater like place ... I was able to grasp the wall and look over it into the area the wall was blocking. To my amazement, at the lower left-hand side was, of all things, me. I was laying [sic] on a table covered with light blue sheets and I was cut open so as to expose my chest cavity. It was in this cavity that I was able to see my heart on what appeared to be a small glass table.
This beginning, on its own, is a generic-enough surgery scene. It’s one that anyone with a television has likely seen, in high drama and vivid gore, 20 times over. Whether one has had real life experience witnessing (or undergoing) a surgery or not, the stage is set and familiar. Were this all that Sullivan had remembered, it would not be an especially intriguing account. But there was more.
I was able to see my surgeon, who just moments ago had explained to me what he was going to do during my operation. He appeared to be somewhat perplexed. I thought he was flapping his arms as if trying to fly.
Sullivan goes on—his deceased mother and deceased brother-in-law are there, and so is a tunnel lit in a “golden hue,” and so, too, a pervading general sense of euphoria and peace—but, at the risk of sounding callous, it’s that weird part about the arm flapping that really means something. That’s the part that Sullivan, were he as unconscious as one is surely meant to be during a quadruple bypass surgery, should not have been able to see. That was what Sullivan’s surgeon, Dr. Takata, looked like (as he later admitted) before putting on his gloves. He was in the habit of holding his hands to his chest—to keep himself from touching anything—and giving instructions to his assistants, using his elbows to point at various surgical instrument. Sullivan was clinically dead, eyes taped shut, sheets over him. How could he have seen this?

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Randomhero1982's picture
I wouldn't really give it any

I wouldn't really give it any credence to be honest, neurologists have tried to test this phenomena in various ways and it's never passed at any stage.

Even a simple thing such as writing a word above the bed that could only be seen by someone above has been tried and those who have had out of body experiences never saw it.

I don't doubt that they have a strange sensation, but I would put it in the same bracket as having a dream.

Nyarlathotep's picture
If you want to convince us of

If you want to convince us of the supernatural, you need to produce supernatural results.

Randomhero1982's picture
Would that be on the lines of

Would that be on the lines of say in 'a nightmare on elm street', where they bring freddy's hat back with them from a dream?

Nyarlathotep's picture
heh something like that...

heh something like that... except hats are mundane objects!

biggus dickus's picture
Anybody can go to one of

Anybody can go to one of these web sites and post a story they made up.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz0C0JpVqnM&t=289s
Most of these things are Anecdotal.

Russian-Tank's picture
But there is a video of him

But there is a video of him talking about the experience. Look it up. He's likely not lying.

biggus dickus's picture
I try not to be overly

I try not to be overly cynical, but I have met people who claim to have their rectum penetrated by aliens. So Please don't blame me for not taking everything at face value.

Some people lie for money, other for attention, and some do it to feel special. In other cases, they may have had false memories.

Russian-Tank's picture
Most skeptics say that he

Most skeptics say that he might have seen the hand movements of his doctor before he was out under anesthesia, and then remembered it incorrectly afterwards with faulty memory. However, he also described right after that he saw doctor's working on his leg, he was able to describe tables around him being used and the medical equipment, which would suggest these observations occured while he was clinically dead. At face value, this claim is amazing. There are many NDE stories like this. I just feel they are hard to explain away, and sometimes people just shrug it off like it's nothing.

biggus dickus's picture
It would take an independent

It would take an independent investigation to verify any of this kind of claims.

Remember that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

xenoview's picture
RT

RT
How do you know the he is not lying? What evidence is there outside of his claims? Can anyone else verify his claims?

chimp3's picture
@Russian-Tank: "Sullivan was

@Russian-Tank: "Sullivan was clinically dead, eyes taped shut, sheets over him. How could he have seen this?"

So , he was being prepped for surgery or the morgue? Which one was it. They did not do CPR , they just taped his eyes shut and covered him up while they were gowning up for surgery? What a bunch of bullshit.

I have seen hundreds of people pass way. No one ever taped their eyes shut. The devil is in the details.

Randomhero1982's picture
May i add, if this is

May i add, if this is considered very convincing to anyone then please get in touch...

..as I have a lot of things i would like to sell to you!

CyberLN's picture
"In an account two years

"In an account two years later, Sullivan would describe..."

Two years later...

R-T, please study up on the biology of memory.

MCDennis's picture
I read this story and I am

I read this story and I am not convinced. What proof can you provide that this story is true?

Russian-Tank's picture
@MCD

@MCD

I can't. It is an anecdote, and it could even be that Sullivan did have a trip to the hospital and had an NDE, but that some facts of the story are left out. Maybe he saw that doctor before. Maybe while he was "dead" he heard one of the nurses working alongside Dr. Tanaka comment on his unusual behaviour. According to Bruce Greyson ( pro nde researcher who published this case), Nurses were not aware of his hand movements unless they worked with him, so maybe a new nurse pointed it out. It could be he saw the doctor do it before, and got memories mixed up, but it wouldn't explain how he saw them working on his leg.
It could be that if we actually had the case videotaped that we would see right through it. I have no idea what the answer is. Many skeptics do dismiss it rather easily "oh all doctor's do that" "oh false memories". I'm not saying they are wrong per say, but I'm not sure if that is a complete answer.

Nyarlathotep's picture
The doctor said he was never

The doctor said he was never clinically dead (or whatever). So there is the first embellishment. How many more do you think there are?

Russian-Tank's picture
Where did he say the man was

Where did he say the man was never clinically dead?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Cook, Greyson, & Stevenson -

Cook, Greyson, & Stevenson - Mr. Sullivan said that Dr. LaSala reported this experience to Dr. Takata, but that Dr. Takata’s only response had been, rather defensively, to insist that Mr. Sullivan had never died during the surgery.

Interesting that the source is Mr. Sullivan himself! Anyone smell a rat?

Russian-Tank's picture
That does seem odd. I wonder

That does seem odd. I wonder if there are simply details of this whole thing left out that we as readers of this anecdote don't get access to.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Typically that is the case

Typically that is the case with these kinds of things. They get told over and over again, each time with a little more embellishment.

LogicFTW's picture
Even if, this story turns out

Even if, this story turns out to be 100% true. It in no way counters the mountain of evidence that true "out of body" experiences never occur. (And I believe this story has some major flaws in it, beyond the simple where is the "real" evidence?)

Also realize the scope of this claim. It is not just trying to claim we have a soul, it is also saying: we can see things without eyes, that when near death we can suddenly have invisible, ethereal "eyes" that can float around look at things and transmit that visual data back to our brains to be stored as memory. That these eyes and "wireless" signals cannot be measured by any device yet known to man. That suddenly when we are near death we can break major well vetted rules of physics, biology, chemistry and many other laws of the universe that would be required to be broken to suddenly be able to see like this. Additionally our brains that have been shut down chemically by being put under, is capable of continuing to work, to process visual input and translate it to memory to be accessed later.

Also doctors can rather easily create near death like scenarios, perhaps even, fairly safely in known healthy individuals. Even if it was not 100% safe they have so many cases of people near death, observational work can be done while the doctors work to save peoples lives. So, it should be a repeatable test. If we can create a scenario where we can test a human condition that suddenly breaks so many known laws of physics and chemistry, and anatomy, and biology and so on, believe me interest would be very high to test it. Yet we never had an actual measured test bring any results of NDE being real.

Randomhero1982's picture
There is an interesting

There is an interesting article regarding this...

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=22035

Russian-Tank's picture
I read that. How exactly does

I read that. How exactly does that article debunk it? I don't see it.

Randomhero1982's picture
Well firstly you can ask

Well firstly you can ask yourself the question of what premise is more likely true...

Premise 1 - The gentleman in question was semi conscious and saw what he later thought to be a NDE.

Premise 2 - The laws of nature suspended in order for a supernatural occurrence to take place.

Which is the more logical position?

You can then also take in account, that at no point was he actually dead but he was quite clearly under the influence of a lot of medicines...

Again, what is more logical?

That's how I would interpret that.

Russian-Tank's picture
That's a good arguement. The

That's a good arguement. The thing is that he apparently had his eyes taped shut. Dr. Long recently said that during anesthesia, only 1 in 1000 ppl report experiences, and most of the time, these are frightening experiences which are painful and make no sense. This man had a very clear and lucid experience.

Randomhero1982's picture
I'm sure he did experience

Well said, And I'm sure he did experience something that felt incredibly real to him and far be it from me to belittle this.

However, again I would say from a skeptic point of view, which is more likely...

1 - His eyes were not completely shut by ineffective taping or perhaps others mentioned the doctor doing his little thing with his elbows.

Or...

2. Again, the laws of nature are suspended in favour of the least probable answer that has little to no evidence.

I would also note, the list for premise one could be vastly expanded upon with evidentiary based lines of thought and simple rational thinking.

Russian-Tank's picture
That's true. It could also be

That's true. It could also be that he saw the doctor do this before his eyes were supposedly taped shut and then got timing mixed up. Maybe it was stored in his memory and incorporated into his experience. Somehow he was aware that they were working on his leg which is also a bit of a mystery. There are many OBE cases like this. I would like to know if you would believe in OBEs if you read enough of these kinds of stories, let's say 50 or 60 almost like this. Or, would you still think there is a natural explanation for even 50 or 60 of these stories?

Randomhero1982's picture
Exactly, that's what I would

Exactly, that's what I would certainly imagine.

By OBE I'm assuming we are now discussing out of body experiences? Again I would have to look at it rationally and say I would imagine it would be more likely a perfectly reasonable neurological explanation then the laws of nature being suspended.

Considering such factors as drugs, dehydration & sensory deprivation can bring this on, it would appear that it's very likely that a biological/neurological explanation could explain almost all situations.

xenoview's picture
I would say that a natural

I would say that a natural explanation for all 50 or 60 of those cases.

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