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The irony here of course is that ISIS have destroyed countless priceless works of art and religious buildings that are of massive historical and cultural significance. Priceless irreplaceable relics of human history, that fell under their power.
We have a forum of atheists who on the whole are mourning the loss of an architectural wonder of massive historical importance. Yet its theists who so often in history wantonly destroy such priceless works of art.
Theistic values puzzle me, but here again we see the bizarre irony that atheists can place an intrinsic value on the loss of a religious building as something that is precious for it's own sake, its inherent aesthetic beauty, its cultural and historical significance, and the marvel of the ingenuity of its human creators.
Yet some theists merely see a target in a rival superstition. Or as in the case of ISIS something beautiful that must be destroyed as representing (in their warped sensibilities) idolatry, and therefore a distraction from the constant servile worship of their vapid fictional deity, as if that deity is impotent to enact its displeasure other than through them.
Of course I realise many theists of differing faith's will be horrified at the destruction of such a magnificent cathedral, but still, its oddly incongruous to me that atheists on the whole would never dream of harming these religious monuments. Whereas theists so often take delight in destroying the mosques synagogues temples churches and cathedrals of other faiths.
Maybe we need a thread on it?
My apologies for the tangential thoughts.
It is a worthy topic to examine.
The latest news is that one firefighter has been seriously hurt.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/notre-dame-cathedral-fir...
And believe it or not, somebody rushed in and saved the Crown of fucking Thorns. Why risk your life for a bit of medieval fakery produced to fleece pilgrims? Unbelievable.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47943705
I hope he makes a full recovery anyway. So the fucking left footers can claim another fucking miracle, sigh...
Off to Lourdes for him then? Though one always wonders why the followers of an omnipotent omnipresent deity are so geographically obsessed?
"somebody rushed in and saved the Crown of fucking Thorns."
Israel Falou?
Let's hope the fireman will be ok. Nobody needs to die for a building.
"to fleece pilgrims" is the answer in your question. They would have only created a new one with some story the authentic one is in permanent storage.
The new crown of thorns is in a fucking pile of them in a Vatican basement ready to go with a certificate of authenticity. See you have to understand the mindset of selection bias, it survives the fire miracle, it's destroyed, but reappears...miracle, it disappears forever, Jesus came down from heaven to save it...miracle...it burns to ash...miracle, miracle, miracle, miracle...reason can't win against anyone that biased from childhood indoctrination.
Another reason not to let Catholic priests anywhere near children, ever.
I also agree with Diotrephes. A thorough investigation.
As I have watched the news stories and WWW posts, I do find the fire starting shortly after "closing" and "knocking off from work" to be suspicious. Not trying to say it was intentional, but the timing is suspicious.
I may be one of the more adamant atheists here, but the remainder of my heart is shattered. Not because it is a theist building, but because Notre Dame is one of the wonderfully beautiful, glorious, and exquisite architectural masterpiece. Even being an atheist, I still admit some of the more ancient cathedrals, churches, etc. are the most beautiful structures ever created by humans. Sadly, the ones I consider most beautiful, ain't nare one here in America.
As CyberLN said, Profound loss...
***again bows head in another moment of silence***
I am so sad...
rmfr
When I park my distaste of theism, I shed tears for this magnificent structure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61ng_QqC4I
You ain't the only one shedding tears.
rmfr
The thing about churches, temples, mosques, and synagouges is that they all originated in the mind of one person. That person was able to bring his dream to life as a beuatiful work of art that in most ways hides the ugliness of the religion itself.
This is one of my favorite churches = https://www.google.com/search?q=las+lajas+sanctuary+interior&client=fire...
This is my favorite mosque = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kul_Sharif_Mosque#/media/File:Qol%C5%9F%C3...
b
As a student and admirer of history and architecture I truly feel the loss of the irreplaceable portions of this grand structure. Visiting it has been a significant feature of my "bucket list" since I had been introduced to the concept.
While I greatly feel the tragedy of its loss to art, architecture and history, I will not be donating or assisting whatsoever in its reconstruction. While I have been able to appreciate the structure for its physical and aesthetic traits, I most definitely did not support its purpose or the activities of the organization behind it. It will be interesting to see how much importance the Vatican and religious individuals put into focusing resources toward this structure when there are still so many in the world, many even faithful to their own beliefs, who desperately require assistance.
I considered offering a donation for the reconstruction, but only very, very briefly before coming up with this scenario: What if the KKK or the Nazi Party had created a magnificent, beautiful structure that was admired the world over? What if that structure were destroyed by accident? What if (before the accident, and after its reconstruction) it were used to spread their ideals proudly? What if the organizations were publicly known to shield criminals? - Yeah; Let it remain as a beautiful ruin or rebuild it as a public amphitheater out of the church's ownership.
The loss of the Notre Dame Cathedral was definitely a loss to world culture. I will admit I shed a tear, and it will be missed.
Serious this time. Of course from a cultural and historical perspective, this is a tragedy. I'm glad to hear this morning both that it does not appear to be complete loss and that many are stepping forward with large funds to aid the rebuilding. I'm also sure that we will be hearing of the miracles that saved the crown of thorns as well as the pieces of the cross and one of the nails used on Christ. That said....
My brother and sister in law visited Notre Dame within the last year. Both are irrational theists and made claims to have never felt the power of God more powerfully that when they saw the crown of thorns. I was unaware of the claims that Notre Dame held this "historical treasure".
Google searches today tell me that this was purchased by Louis IX in 1238. The ownership chain before that appears murky at best. Has anyone examined these claims more thoroughly?
Generally in cases where it is possible to independently date the artifacts (i.e. via carbon dating etc.), the artifacts date to around the same time they are first attested in the historical record in their unbroken chain of provenance.
edit:typo
NewSkeptic,
"Has anyone examined these claims more thoroughly?"
There is no bullshit that people won't believe if it will support their delusions.
Quite incredible that so far, there has been two donations of 200 million Euros, and another two donations of 100 million Euros towards rebuilding (from billionaires and businesses).
Sapporo,
It's easy to build a new building but can the religion be restored? The religion has been dying.
Hero priest saves the Notre Dame holy fakes ... praise the lord!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6927345/Fire-chaplain-helped-Ba...
Well, with the billions of dollars the catholic church takes in around the world each and every year, let them pay for it..it would be a blink of the eye for their coffers.
Several individuals ha e put up hundreds of millions of euros and city of Paris chipped in 10 million. It's a Catholic church. What has the Pope who presides over the largest horde of money in the world offered? The fucking Pope offered his prayers. Really? That and five bucks won't get you a coffee at Starbucks.
This is really starting to annoy me now.
28 people have just lost their lives in a terrible crash this evening in Madeira and yet the burning of a building belonging to the catholic church still takes top spot on the news just now. Apparently the donations have reached almost a billion Euros for a fucking BUILDING! - It's obscene.
With all the money the catholic church have got let them pay for their own repairs and maybe the money could be used to provide medicines for those who are still dying of malaria, ebola or simply starvation.
MarylinC,
"With all the money the catholic church have got let them pay for their own repairs and maybe the money could be used to provide medicines for those who are still dying of malaria, ebola or simply starvation."
The Catholic church does not own Notre Dame. The French government owns all of the cathedrals.
"Since 1905, France’s cathedrals (including Notre-Dame de Paris) have been owned by the state. According to a representative of the Aon’s French business, the assets owned by the state are self-insured by the state. Therefore, it is an issue for governmental officials, but not for the insurance market. However, there is an exception - if the fire were found to have been caused by contractors working on the site.[49]. The French insurer (AXA) provided insurance coverage for two of the contracting firms that were working on Notre-Dame’s restoration before the blaze which devastated the cathedral. AXA also provided insurance coverage[50] for some of the relics and religious artworks displayed in the cathedral.[51]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dame_de_Paris
The government is doing a little flim-flam. Three seconds after the fire had started it said that it wasn't arson or terrorism. That way it can file a claim against the insurance company to recoup some of the damages. If it was arson or terrorism the State will have to eat the cost, minus donations.
So technically it is a French government problem and not a Catholic church problem. ISIS has just said that it will attack other churches in France. The repair bill will get very costly if the State can't tag the insurance companies.
@ MarylinC
I hear ya me lady. I saw that Madeira crash. I also saw a much beloved young lady just collapsed and died at 16. Another lady finally succumbed to the cancer she was diagnosed with and even wrote her own obituary. All the stories are sad.
However, there is one thing you must remember about the media. They are a cruel, heartless, and unscrupulous entity that cares nothing about anything except what will get them the ratings. To the media, 28 people killed in a crash? So the fuck what? Happens all the time. How often is there a news story about an 800 year old cathedral burning down? One of the Other Seven Great Wonders of the World.
Please realize I was imitating the media entity. Not my sentiments. I get news stories every day. Most I do not read because they are of no interest. However, this story about Bailey Jean Matheson, of Halifax, Canada, and this story about Mya-Lecia Naylor: CBBC star dies suddenly, aged 16, my heart broke.
Then there is this thread I started about my current most favoritest actress.
Thus, I hear you me lady. You have to do like me. Take it with a grain of salt. The media only cares about money and sensationalism is what brings in the big bucks.
rmfr
Thanks Arakish, great reply.
Yeah I saw the story about Mya although I didn't know about Bailey Matheson so thanks for the link.
It really was tragic to see a young girl dying at only 16 years old. Another tragic story which broke this morning was the murder of Lyra McKee, a journalist and LGBT activist, who was just 29 because of the religiously motivated terrorism in Northern Ireland.
RE: Bailey Jean Matheson story.
I love this story because my intention is to do the same should I be diagnosed with a death causing disease. Granted I am a bit older. Still, if I am diagnosed with early dementia, cancer or whatever. I want to refuse all treatment, apply for a euthanasia program and end myself simply and easily.
The number one reason for financial problems, bankruptcy, in America is medical bills. *I know she was Canadian* but imagine the cost to her loving parents over the years should she have gone into treatment. Letting nature take its course is a gesture of love and respect for her parents. They would have mortgaged their home and lost everything to try and save their daughter as so many parents do. Her decision was one of LOVE and RESPECT for herself, her friends and her parents. Thanks for sharing.
Yup...170 billion each and every year...leave the building in ruin...until the catholic church fixes it. Which we know would be never.
A testament to what faith is really about.
doG,
"Yup...170 billion each and every year...leave the building in ruin...until the catholic church fixes it. Which we know would be never."
Since the church doesn't own it it's not its to fix. It is up to the French people to fix it since they are the owners.
So they never ever used that building...ic.
doG,
"So they never ever used that building...ic."
They use it but they don't own it.
"France separates church and state. So who’s responsible for Notre Dame?"
“We know that, the public finance situation being quite challenging, there are a few historical buildings, monuments that probably have not been maintained as they used to be maintained when our public finance was better,” Lopinot said. According to a Ministry of Culture survey from the 1980s, there are about 32,000 churches, 6,000 chapels and 87 cathedrals in France. All those built before 1905 are publicly owned."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/04/18/france-separates-church-...
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