The Transgender deulusion

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
"WHY DO YOU CARE HOW OTHERS

"WHY DO YOU CARE HOW OTHERS LIVE THEIR LIVES"
10,000 agrees here Sheldon.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I just don't understand the

I just don't understand the purpose of calling me a bigot, as if I wasn't living in my body and wasn't aware of my own thoughts.

It's no different from me trying to convince you that you are an opossum. Hopefully you know you're not an opossum, and my repetition doesn't alter that.

I think your accusations of dishonesty and bigotry are your attempts to convince yourself that that are true, rather than me.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@SjW

@SjW

What did you read an actual trans persons comic strip? Do you have a comment for them? Please let me know and I will forward your writings to her, I m sure she will have heard nothing like them before.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT
Would you intervene if you saw your co religionists about to throw a trans person of a roof?

I will keep copy and pasting the question until you answer...then I may have more questions for you...man of peace....

Sheldon's picture
Theist rule #009 dismiss all

Theist rule #009 dismiss all accusations of religious bigotry with a bigoted generalisation about atheists or atheism.

You know what glib facile pithy responses are easy. I imagine it's something to do with completely ignoring all the content and argument and evidence and simply invoking a facile ad hominem fallacy.

Here's a clue, he hasn't run out of arguments, they're in his post you just responded to.

I'll dumb them down and bullet them since you're struggling:

1) His bigotry is a result of his inability to accept ideas or points of view that are contrary to his religious indoctrination. Evidenced by the fact that he can offer no cogent reason as to why he even cares what gender other people identify as, or who other people love and have sex with.
2) He attached a cartoon strip designed to enlighten bigots as to why their bigotry is facile and pernicious. It showed a daughter explaining to her father that she didn't feel the need to justify who she is.
3) The strip also explained that transgender "isn't catching" as we often hear religious bigots describe acceptance of ideas like transgender and homosexuality that run contrary to their religious indoctrination as some sort of slippery slope, though they never offer any cogent explanation or evidence of why they think this.
4) Lastly he posed a moral question in response to (avoids) seeking the truth in response to one of his many bigoted remarks about gay and transgender people. "If you saw some of your co-religionists about to throw a transgender person off a rooftop would you intervene?"

So your post is as dishonest as it asinine, since he didn't run out of arguments at all.

Searching for truth's picture
@oldman

@oldman

"try looking at the attached strip from Sophie Labelle (Assigned Male gender)" i can't, i am too blinded by the bigotry you have attached to me. Seeing that you believe everything is subject maybe, your view of bigotry is not the same as everyone else so, i guess it does not really matter

"And here is a question for you...If you saw some of your co-religionists about to throw a transgender person off a rooftop would you intervene?" About a year ago at the gym there were these 2 guys picking on a smaller guy, at first i did not know why they were picking on the smaller, i figured it was just some bigger dudes picking on the smaller dude . I started used the bench closer to the 2 guys to try and understand why they were picking on him because i wanted to jump and do something about it but wanted to hear what they were saying and what would be the best way to intervene. Between all their talk i heard them say "fa***t" 2-3 times. So since me and the smaller guy were both working on shoulders that day and i saw he had bad form on a few of his sets i approached him and started giving him advice (i have been working out for over 10 years) and we worked out together for the rest of the day. I asked him if it was the first time these 2 guys pick on him he said no. So i went to the 2 guys (which are at least 20-25 pounds smaller than me) and kept constantly asking them "are you using those dumbbells? " and they would always answer "No" so i would take that weight and do a set. I kept asking them about dumbbells i knew they could not lift, or even if they tried lifting their form would be shit. I was basically looking for a way to intimidate them the same way they intimated by new gay workout buddy for that day. I could tell they started getting annoyed and knew (or at least felt) what i was doing or trying to do. Finally, i went to one them when his buddy went to get water and asked him to spot me, i was intentionally using a weight that i knew he would not be able to really help/spot me if i really needed it. I started acting like i needed his help on the spot, when he wasn't able to really spot i put the weight down and told him "Come on, man. WTF??? can't you spot me? What are you? A Fa***t? Can't you spot like a man"? Right then and their he knew exactly what i was doing and why i called him over to spot me. Long story, short, i them to leave this guy alone and stop being assholes to him because there will always be someone bigger than you that will be willing to kick your ass for stupid crap like that. By the way, my gay workout buddy knew what i was doing and actually did not have a problem with me using the F word. As i told him, sometimes with certain people you can't be nice or politically correct, sometimes people need to know that you are willing to do or say what it takes to get your message across, within limits of course.

I have stated this before but, in case you were too "blinded by your own bigotry you cant see anything" let me say it again. I do not call for, wish for nor do i condone violence on anyone for their beliefs, race, sexual orientation, gender or anything else along those lines and that also includes the LGTB community.

In my life i have actually had 3 total instances were i stood up for people that belong to the LGTB community, twice for gay people (once is the story above) and once for a trans person. I did not stand up for these 3 people because they were gay or trans, i stood up for them because 1) they are people just like me and everyone else 2) they are just as flawed and screwed as the rest of us 3) they were being picked on and harassed for no legitimate reason other than the fact that the idiots harassing them did not like them. 4) And Islam also teaches us to stand up for the weak and oppressed, without limits.

Throughout my lifetime i have stood up for Jews, Muslims and Christians too. Even when they disagreed with me because resorting to violence and harassment just because someone disagrees with you is the epitome of absurdity.

So, Old man, sorry to burst your bubble and not be one of "those gay bashing/hating Muslims" that claim they are following Islam when they try to hurt members of the LGBT. FYI, contrary to popular fabricated belief, Islam does NOT hate gay people. Some Muslims, Christian, Jews,and Atheist might hate gay people but, that does not mean everyone belonging to that group does. The Quran does not say 1 single word about gay people, what it talks about is homosexual actions/intercourse (once i think, twice max), big difference. We believe gay people are born that way and that is their test in life, the same way we are all tested, everyone is tested differently. Poor people are tested with poverty to see if they will react in an immoral way according to the Quran to get what they are missing. Will they end up stealing, lying, deceiving or even killing to get what they want? Rich people are tested with their wealth, how will they spend it? will they help the poor, homeless, orphans, the oppressed or anyone else in a bad situation or will they just waste their time and wealth on "hookers and sports cars"? This does not mean that rich people should spend 100% of their money helping others but, you get the point.

You know what, i will look at the strip you attached. My reaction is that this is public and VOLUNTARY forum, no one is forced to come here and to explain and justify their existence. To all those that did and stuck to the topic, i thank them. To those that might have ignored this thread or read and did not reply, that is their own choice and i respect their choice to do so. So, i honestly do not know what the point of your comic strip is.

arakish's picture
If this is an actual incident

If this is an actual incident, then why are you so into bashing transgenders?

I have known several gays, lesbians, bisexual, and transgenders throughout my long life. I have never had any problem with any of them. Even the gays that would mention, as they would say it, "having a hard on" for me, would simply make my wife jealous and when we were alone, well. you get the picture. I have heard lesbians say the same about my wife, but some reason it did not make me jealous, just made me "want" my wife even more.

Although my wife and I never experimented outside of just us two, we had had discussions about it. We just found that we were in love with each other so deeply, we were all we needed.

As far as I am concerned, and Sheldon has said the same, as long as people keep it to themselves and behind closed doors and are HARMING no one else, who the fuck am I to dictate to others whom they can love?

And get this, it was not even my province to dictate to my wife whom she could love. Yes, she loved me, but that was HER choice. Not mine. Which of course made me the luckiest man to ever exist in all history. And, yes, I am biased.

Additionally, who the fuck am I to dictate to any person they identify as to their gender? I have admitted it in several posts. I even dated a transgender and SHE was a very delightful person to be around. We dated for about 14 months before I got the job at Yellowstone. SHE wanted to stay with her mom, who was her staunchest supporter. SHE also wanted to help care for her mom since her siblings would not. Thus, we separated, but only on the best of terms. If I had not gotten that job with Yellowstone, we'd still be in a relationship.

And my previous statement about what you MIGHT be, is as Sheldon put it. In my long years, it has also been my experience that most inexorable Absolutists also tended to harbor very deep identity problems. And the sub-conscious can work the wickedest whammies inside a person's mind for dealing with these inconsistencies. I also never said you were, just that "I think." And what "I think" about a person's possible true stance means nothing. That person will show his/her stance by their speech and actions. In other words, in a very old adage, "the proof is in the pudding."

What I cannot understand is if you can have that stand for a homosexual, then why cannot you have the same for transgenders?

rmfr

Searching for truth's picture
@arakish,

@arakish,

"If this is an actual incident, then why are you so into bashing transgenders?" Where did i bash transgenders? Having a different opinion and bashing are 2 completely different things.

arakish's picture
If you cannot remember what

If you cannot remember what you have posted...

rmfr

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT
Well good for you. You are a moral person.

Now how do you describe those who use your religion, and believe in it as much as you...to perpetrate such atrocities as throwing people of a roof? Or slavery? Or apostasy? ? All of whom use your exact texts as justification?

Searching for truth's picture
@Old man

@Old man

"Now how do you describe those who use your religion, and believe in it as much as you...to perpetrate such atrocities as throwing people of a roof? Or slavery? Or apostasy? ? All of whom use your exact texts as justification?"

Same way you would explain it if an atheist or any other person did it. Same way you would explain a person that thinks 1+1=3

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT

"Same way you would explain it if an atheist or any other person did it" which is a very Breezy like avoidance of the question. viz (italics so you can understand) "Now how do you describe those who use your religion, and believe in it as much as you ...to perpetrate such atrocities as throwing people of a roof? Or slavery? Or apostasy? ? All of whom use your exact texts as justification?"

Your previous answer cannot be accepted as atheists do not have a common text or texts to justify their actions. Please try again, addressing the salient points.

If it is too hard for you or too difficult to explain who decided and why, certain texts are used to justify such actions in one sect and used as "metaphors" in another, or "taken out of context" by a third....just say so.
But that will leave the explanation of how the perfect prophet with the perfect word of god is so badly misunderstood by at least one third of its followers at any one time, and only you, seemingly , have the key to the puzzle.... take your time, work through the angst and dissonance...

Sheldon's picture
" i honestly do not know what

" i honestly do not know what the point of your comic strip is."

I doubt that somehow, but if that's the case then the bigotry you have voiced here is at least partly explained, though it remains unconscionable of course. Voicing a viewpoint that denigrates a person for who they are is not only pernicious it is in most civilised countries now considered to be active discrimination, and therefore illegal. Religious beliefs are a choice, being gay or suffering from gender dysphoria isn't. You are comparing the choice to make bigoted and prejudiced remarks, with someone being who they are, they're not remotely the same. What's more I wouldn't seek out a person to denigrate any belief they held, I would only object if they voiced those beliefs publicly, and I considered those belief to be pernicious.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, you can believe the moon is made of cheese if it makes you happy, but when you start insisting the right to teach children the belief is comparable with objective facts, or that your cheese moon has rules others must obey, then I am going to object. Your thread is asking transgender people to justify who they are, and it's none of your business. What's more by calling it a delusion young clearly set the tone as one of religious bigotry, despite your and Breezy's histrionics over the word. You also lied and claimed it was classified as a mental disorder.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT
"So, i honestly do not know what the point of your comic strip is."
I doubt that, a bit of Breezy mendacity is creeping in there old chap.
Sophie Labelle is a cartoonist, She uses her talents to illustrate her humanity and the inhumanity, rudeness and bigotry (often unthinking) displayed by such as yourself in the OP and elsewhere on this forums.

I suggest it would do you good to read her FB pages, there are many cartoons there that closely mirror your attitude. Unlike the answers from myself, this person is living the life of a trans person. Who better to educate you? And that, you sorely need, unless you are not, indeed seeking for truth, but rather a forum to put your tortured medieval views?

Sheldon's picture
Bravo.

Bravo.

Muashkis's picture
1) Took me hours of reading

1) Took me hours of reading and a sleepless night of pondering to finally catch up. You guys are NUTS, mostly in a good way. And while I most definitely will freak out if I ever meet a transgender in real life, same as I did first encountering homo/bi-sexuals, at least the insights provided by @PercetionLies should make my discomfort of addressing this to me poorly known, mysterious existence a whole lot easier. Really, thank you for your openness. I feel like your sharing will let me become a better person, ultimately.

2) @SfT - no one here is attacking your moral stance. Neither your faith in God in itself (tho we do find it ridiculous). The bigotry pointed out is simple, yet very hard to grasp for a believer. Trust me, I was there, it took me years to understand it and address it.

Faith has nothing to do with Logic. That's it. Pascal's Wager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager is by far the best theistic argument put forward so far, imo (despite it's fallacies, which are irrelevant to the topic) It also clearly points out the difference, which I had to suffer to realize. Do read it if you haven't, it's equally valuable for either side of the argument.

If you still can't agree on this simple distinction, then we're done.

PS: as for Breezy - he's a worse bigot than SfT. At least our muslim friend here seems to suffer from only one form of it, while our catholic one (if I got that right) should never be allowed anywhere near clinical patients of his acclaimed field of study.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Muashkis

@ Muashkis

"PS: as for Breezy - he's a worse bigot than SfT. At least our muslim friend here seems to suffer from only one form of it, while our catholic one (if I got that right) should never be allowed anywhere near clinical patients of his acclaimed field of study."

I suspect he must be going to a very third rate tertiary institution, or even one of those unaccredited places barely ranking with with "Liberty University" . I dunno how America works but I am an Accredited Minister of Religion with a certain place of learning in Colorado and hold a Masters of Life Learning from some place in Pheonix Az. I suspect that's where Breezy is at this moment. Reading the back of reality magazines and eating cheeseburgers while tithing uncontrollably to Mr and Mrs Honest Bakker.

And as for "patients" ...nah, he should never be allowed real humans to study. They would destroy his preconceptions.

Sheldon's picture
I think he said he was a

I think he said he was a protestant, but I agree with the rest, I'd not let any medical practitioner of any stripe near me if I knew they denied scientific facts like species evolution. I mean if someone can rationalise cherry picking which scientific facts they'll accept then you'd be insane to seek any kind of medical treatment from them.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
One thing does not affect the

One thing does not affect the other. Id rather have a doctor that knows what he's doing, even if he believes in aliens, denies the holocaust, and argues that the earth is flat, over the doctor that doesn't know what he's doing, but is very mainstream about his scientific beliefs.

Then again, you're not a reasonable person, so of course you'll make decisions on irrelevant information.

Muashkis's picture
@Breezy - "over the doctor

@Breezy - "over the doctor that doesn't know what he's doing, but is very mainstream about his scientific beliefs."

My point exactly. Bigot

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Then I'm thankful for my

Then I'm thankful for my unconscious bigotry, since it has endowed me with the intellect to stay alive in this scenario.

Sheldon's picture
Be sure and insist on the old

Be sure and insist on the old antibiotics, the ones that are useless because the bacteria have evolved to be resistant to them.

"geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

"Many scientists and philosophers of science have described evolution as fact and theory, a phrase which was used as the title of an article by paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould in 1981. He describes fact in science as meaning data, not absolute certainty but "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent".

Why We Get Sick: The New Science of Darwinian Medicine
Randolph M. Nesse

The Interface of Evolution and Medicine
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl_1/1691
"The range of topics has been expanded, the connections to basic research have been strengthened, the medical community has been more strongly represented, at a higher level, than it had been previously, and the issue of how best to ****educate future physicians in evolutionary thinking*** has been developed significantly."

"The four general messages are fundamental but often neglected. First, the view of organisms as machines whose design has been optimized by engineers is as misleading as it is deeply entrenched. Organisms are, instead, bundles of compromises shaped by natural selection to maximize reproduction, not health. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852567/
"evolutionary theory is the glue that holds the disparate branches of biological inquiry together and gives them direction and purpose, the links to biomedical inquiry have only recently been articulated in a coherent manner. Our aim in this review is to make clear first of all, how evolutionary theory is relevant to medicine; and secondly, how the biomedical sciences have enriched our understanding of evolutionary processes. "

You never tire of making grandiloquent claims about your intellect, and i never tire of pointing out it is at odds with the entire scientific world. As clear an an example of the Dunning Kruger effect as any I've seen.

Sheldon's picture
"One thing does not affect

"One thing does not affect the other. Id rather have a doctor that knows what he's doing, "

Of course the one thing affects the other, a doctor or any medical practitioner has to base their treatment on scientific facts, not woo woo superstition. If they cherry pick which facts they'll accept and deny ones that contradict archaic creation myths then I wouldn't leave them anywhere near me or mine. What's more they have an obligation to disclose to their patients if they are using superstition to overrule known medical facts.

" is very mainstream about his scientific beliefs."

Science isn't based on beliefs, it;s based on objective empirical evidence, where are you being schooled?

"Then again, you're not a reasonable person, so of course you'll make decisions on irrelevant information."

You don't think it is reasonable to want a doctor to accept medical facts like species evolution? Or are you seriously going to claim that medical science does not consider this a fact? I think the hilarity of you calling anyone unreasonable in the middle of that sentnece speaks for itself John.

"Id rather have a doctor that knows what he's doing, even if he believes in aliens, denies the holocaust, and argues that the earth is flat,"

A laughable straw man John fair play, you know we were referring to biological facts like species evolution through natural selection. However it speaks volumes you think a doctor can "know what they are doing" when they are so devolved from reality as to believe the world is flat.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
"You don't think it is

"You don't think it is reasonable to want a doctor to accept medical facts like species evolution?".

No, it's not reasonable, given that species evolution is not a medical fact.

Sheldon's picture
"No, it's not reasonable,

"No, it's not reasonable, given that species evolution is not a medical fact."

Of course it is John, you're being absurd as usual, seriously get a refund on your tuition fees and switch to a proper university that doesn't water down science with superstitious hokum, but by all means you go ahead and let doctors who think as you do tinker with you. I'll continue to defer to medical science.

Evolution and medicine: the long reach of "Dr. Darwin"
Niall Shanks, and Rebecca A Pyles

"evolutionary theory is the glue that holds the disparate branches of biological inquiry together and gives them direction and purpose, the links to biomedical inquiry have only recently been articulated in a coherent manner. Our aim in this review is to make clear first of all, how evolutionary theory is relevant to medicine; and secondly, how the biomedical sciences have enriched our understanding of evolutionary processes. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852567/

Sheldon's picture
ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ "I never

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ "I never thought I'd find myself saying this, since it's a very cringy pop-psych thing to say, but I think the problem here is much in line with the findings of Dunning and Kruger."

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ "species evolution is not a medical fact."

So you're yet again claiming to know better than the entire scientific world, including for example world leading scientists in their fields like Darwin, Stephen jay Gould, and Richard Dawkins.

Well lets just remind ourselves how the Dunning Kruger effect manifests:

"In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is."

Hmm...

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Have you ever read the

Have you ever read the Dunning paper? Here, in case you want to catch up:

Kruger, J., & Dunning, D. (1999). Unskilled and unaware of it: How difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77, 1121–1134.

Muashkis's picture
@Breezy

@Breezy
"Unskilled and unaware of it: How difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments."

I'm surprised you haven't understood this applies to yourself.

"Then I'm thankful for my unconscious bigotry, since it has endowed me with the intellect to stay alive in this scenario."

Alive you still are, though clearly not because of your own intellectual capability. This one speaks for itself.

"No, it's not reasonable, given that species evolution is not a medical fact."

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I'm aware that the forum

I'm aware that the forum thinks it's about me. Which is why I find it so ironic, given that I'm the only person here who has actually had to study the subject.

It's little children trying to convince their parent that they are grown up.

Sheldon's picture
It's not how the forum thinks

It's not how the forum thinks John, that's again extremely dishonest. You claim to know what the entire scientific world does not, including all the scientific world's foremost experts on evolutionary biology, past and present, even Darwin himself.

Here's our own quote: Kruger, J., & Dunning, D. (1999). Unskilled and unaware of it: How difficulties in recognizing one’s own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77, 1121–1134.

Now look at the rest of your post..."given that I'm the only person here who has actually had to study the subject."

You're the only person here denying objective scientific facts John, so making such grandiose claims about what you perceive as your expertise (you're only a student John) is just reinforcing the point being made about your opinion of your own ability pointing to the Dunning Kruger effect. Others are simply accepting scientific facts, you are claiming to know better than the entire scientific world, so come off it John.

"It's little children trying to convince their parent that they are grown up."

The irony of that remark is palpable John, especially since the Dunning Kruger effect would precisely prompt such misplace arrogance in a student who is claiming to know better than all the world's foremost experts in evolutionary biology. Your accusation that this effect is displayed by others who simply accepting all scientific facts on a level plane without bias, is almost Orwellian in its irony.

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