Violence towards wives and children in Islam

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Al-Fatihah's picture
@Watchman

@Watchman

And the fact is that the Qur'an in use today can be traced back to the Prophet's approval. Therefore, since it is approved, there is no corruption. That is also a fact you conveniently gloss over.

Therefore, early manuscripts saying something differently proves......nothing. In fact, you just proved the Qur'an is authentic since you admit those differences are NOT in the Qur'an and they are...as you stated....the EARLIEST. Do you listen to yourself? You said they are the earliest. Not the ORIGINAL. Meanwhile the current version is exactly the original one. So you as usual make my point. Thanks.

By the way, the claim you have been making all along that they are different was only allowed because I wanted you to say it more times so when I say the following, it will crush your absurdity:

There is absolutly NO DIFFERENCE, I repeat, NO DIFFERENCE, in the readings from today. Now I challenge you to back your claim and prove there is a difference.

Now let us see how far your "intelligence" of the Qur'anic manuscript goes now.

Al-Fatihah's picture
@Diotrephas

@Diotrephas

That's not a change to the Qur'an if someone adds a page number and verse to a book the Qur'an is written in. The Qur'an is not a book. It is the recitation revealed to the Prophet from Allah. That is the Qur'an. Not the page numbers or numbers on top of verses and chapters.

watchman's picture
Al-Fatihah ....

Al-Fatihah ....

Do you actually read anything anyone posts for you..... it appears not....

"In fact, you just proved the Qur'an is authentic since you admit those differences are NOT in the Qur'an and they are...as you stated....the EARLIEST."

No...that's not what I said...re read my post.....
"my point is that we now have the earliest copies of the Quran... perhaps even THE EARLIEST copies ...... and they don't say the same things as your current version..... so as your current version cannot be traced back to the original source .... by your own definition ....it has to be corrupted."

See that..... "my point is that we now have the earliest copies of the Quran... perhaps even THE EARLIEST copies ...... "

Perhaps ...perhaps..... see that word..... it MAY be THE earliest...... it may not...there could be other earlier copies hidden in old mosques across Yemen ,Egypt and North Africa.

"By the way, the claim you have been making all along that they are different was only allowed because I wanted you to say it more times so when I say the following, it will crush your absurdity:"

I see...you are going to crush my absurdity ....really.....?

There is absolutly NO DIFFERENCE, I repeat, NO DIFFERENCE, in the readings from today. Now I challenge you to back your claim and prove there is a difference.

OK.....but its not too much of a challenge...... as you would know if you had taken the time to look up the references I pointed you towards ..... but no.....couldn't do that could you ?

Well check out the Wikipedia article on the Sanaa Palimpsest

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript"

If you look closely you'll see it lists all the changes between the Quran of today and the ancient version.... do try to read the whole article...... it will prove educational......

Al-Fatihah's picture
@Watchman

@Watchman

And your references just proved my point. Your own reference says that the underlying texts differs from the standard texts of today. Whereas the overlaying texts..... does not.

Well, the text on top can be traced back to the Prophet. The underlying text ......CANNOT. So your link just proved there is no corruption because the text on top and the standardized text today can be traced back to the Prophet, which means since it can ALL be traced back to the original source, then today we still have what was originally revealed in the Qur'an.

Thanks for the assistance. Any other sources you want to provide that helps make my point that the Qur'an is the true word of Allah?

watchman's picture
Dear ,dear me......

Dear ,dear me......

I have been doing my level best not to resort to personal abuse....... BUT ..I do have to ask....... are your parents cousins ???

The text on top...is indeed the standard Uthmanic version..... and it is written on top..... BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN AFTER the underlying text.

Thus the underlying text was written BEFORE the text on top ..... that is it is EARLIER ..... a pre Uthmanic version...... proving beyond reasonable doubt that the Quran has been changed ...altered...... in your terms...it has been corrupted.....

Bloody hell..... do I have to lead you by the nose ..... ???

IF ANY OF THE TEXTS CAN BE TRACED BACK TO THE PROPHET...(and that's a big "if") .... then it has to be the EARLIER TEXT....the one written first....the underlying text. So today you do not have what was originally revealed. However much you want it not to be true ..... facts is facts.

Al-Fatihah's picture
@Watchman

@Watchman

You shouldn't worry about Parents as Cousins since your ideology believes they were descendants of ape-like ancestors. Maybe slipping on feces and falling head first to the ground by your grand parents is the reason why your knowledge is so impotent?

As for the rest, the text written earlier proves exactly that...IT'S EARLIER . Not that the Qur'an used today is not ORIGINAL. Corruption is not knowing the ORIGINAL. Yet what we have today can be traced back to the Prophet, thus we do have the ORIGINAL. So again your own evidence only proves the Qur'an is unchanged.

In fact, your own evidence says:

"Within each sura the surviving lower text presents the same verses as the standard Qur'an and in exactly the same order".

Amusing. Your own evidence is proof the Qur'an is not corrupted.

Any more evidence you like to present that only helps to prove the Qur'an is the true word of Allah?

watchman's picture
"In the 1970s, 14,000

"In the 1970s, 14,000 fragments of Qur'an were discovered in the Great Mosque of Sana'a, the Sana'a manuscripts.
About 12,000 fragments belonged to 926 copies of the Qur'an, the other 2,000 were loose fragments.
The oldest known copy of the Qur'an so far belongs to this collection: it dates to the end of the 7th–8th centuries.
The important find uncovered many textual variants not known from the canonical 7 (or 10 or 14) texts.
The examination by Gerd R. Puin, who led the restoration project, revealed "unconventional verse orderings, minor textual variations,
and rare styles of orthography and artistic embellishment."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism#Qur.27an

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript#cite_note-7

See Wiki Sana'a article ...
1st paragraph ,3rd sentence.....
"the lower text contains many variants to the standard text"

See content of the Manuscript.... 1st sentence 2nd paragraph....
"The lower text is contains some differences from the standard text #"
[ #For example, in sura 2, verse 87, the lower text has wa-qaffayna 'ala atharihi whereas the standard text has wa-qaffayna min ba'dihi]

I think I can see where your confussion comes from....the 1st sentence of the last paragraph of the chapter headded Lower Text reads...
"Within each sura the surviving lower text presents the same verses as the standard Qur'an and in exactly the same order"

this I think is what gives you a passing straw to clutch at..... but then if you'd read further it goes on to indicate that there are indeed changes...
"For example, the Sana'a codex omits the basmala before sura 9."

So.... no cigar I'm afraid..... The Quran has been altered.....

Al-Fatihah's picture
@ Watchman

@ Watchman

HAAHAAAAHAAHAAAA. Your desperation is making me laugh so hard it brings tears to my eyes.

I quoted your own source saying:

"Within each sura the surviving lower text presents the same verses as the standard Qur'an and in exactly the same order".

So your own source shows the Qur'an has not been changed. You then quote from the same source that says the Qur'an has NOT been changed to show it has been changed. Then that means your own source is bogus, thus failing to disprove the fact that the Qur'an is the same and untampered. Meanwhile, we can trace the Qur'an in use today to its original source, thus confirming that the Qur'an is unaltered and unchanged.

watchman's picture
# Al-Fat ......

# Al-Fat ......

OK.... you might want to knock the maniacal laughter on the head..... its kind of a give away.....

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time assimilating the information about the "other" Qurans..... it is obviously going to be traumatic for you to realise you've been treated like a mushroom all these years ( kept in the dark and fed sh#t..).

It would be so much more comfortable for you if the Sana'a Palymset had not been found.... but it was discovered.... and I'm pretty sure more will be found ... so you are going to have to find a way to live with it.

But you must realise that your religion is built on shifting sand.... your founders chose to base much of your faith on Judaism and Christianity.... but as research into both Judaism and Christianity has progressed large parts of the stories of both have been proved to be nothing more than myth cycles.

For instance the Moses /Musa story line has been found to be a "rip off" of the Sargon birth narative and life story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad

To date there is NO EVIDENCE for the Israelite slaves in /or traveling from Egypt.

Then of course they chose to tie themselves to the Noah /Nuh story .... which has been so thouroughly debunked that it would take a whole thread on its own to cover all the errors and discrepancies.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#history

Then of course there is the whole virgin mary story from the christians .... proven to have originated in a translation error.....

http://www.harrington-sites.com/terms.htm

So you see... your fath is a fraud built on a mistake built on a fraud......

Im sorry you find this upsetting.... but man ! how did you get to 30+ years old without a clue....??

Now ..to be frank...you are boring the crap out of me ... so I'm perfectly happy to let this thread stand as it is....
I have presented my points and linked them to my sources..... and you have screamed like a petulant three year old with its wet daiper around its ankles and presented nothing but unsupported assertions ...

so i'm pretty much happy to leave things as they are and let any readers decide for themselves.

Thank you for your co-operation in helping me to bring out this information ...

xenoview's picture
@Al-Fatihah

@Al-Fatihah
Why were these unique versions of the Qur'an later destroyed by fire?

http://www.harvardhouse.com/quran_purity.htm

This is from number 5
According to the traditional Islamic narrative, the Quran was standardized into a single, authorative text for the first time by Caliph Uthman about 30 years after Muhammad died. The way this was done was that Uthman collected all manuscripts of the Quran that had been written down by various people across the Empire, he then selected the "authentic" ones and burned all variant readings.

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22828.0

Albert jr joseph's picture
Come on muslims can t you

Come on muslims can t you just live with one wife you gotta ruin other peoples lives this is what allah want sexual suppression

Albert jr joseph's picture
this is what allah want total

this is what allah want total sexual suppression now thats religion saying some bullcrap even muhammad is a pedophile

Al-Fatihah's picture
@Albert

@Albert

If sex is oppressive to you, that sounds like an impotent atheist. Islam is not at fault for that and as for Muhammad (saw) being a pedophile, the same sources you refer to in claiming he is a pedophile also say Aisha was loved and treated kindly, and grew to be a leader and scholar. So by your logic, pedophilia is a great thing, thus exposing your own perverted atheist ideology. Not Islam.

Harry Truman's picture
So let me get that s straight

So let me get that s straight, your book says pefophilia is great, therefore we are pedophiles. Hmm.

xenoview's picture
Mohammed Haji Sadiq, a part

@Al-Fatihah
Mohammed Haji Sadiq, a part-time imam who taught young kids about the Qur’an at a mosque in Wales, was just sentenced to 13 years in jail for his repeated assaults of four girls between the ages of 5 and 11. He reportedly abused them when they made a mistake in class. So this is an example of a good muslim teacher being a pedophile.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/07/09/quran-teacher-wh...

Albert jr joseph's picture
this is what allah want total

which is much crazier islam or christianity

xenoview's picture
islam is more dangerous than

islam is more dangerous than christianity. Islam has it's extremist and terrorist willing to kill in the name of their god.

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