Viruses Disprove Intelligent Design.

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...'s picture
If you told me a car came

If you told me a car came with legs I'll still want the refund. I wouldn't get on a plane that flapped its wings either.

Greensnake's picture
Animals aren't cars and birds

Animals aren't cars and birds aren't airplanes, so what is the point here? You have not answered Nyarlathotep whose point is spot on! The clumsiness we're talking about is relative to reasonable animal construction. We are not talking about airplanes and cars!

Greensnake's picture
John 61X Breezy:

John 61X Breezy:

1) "Clumsy" means awkwardly done here, not impossible. Why are you trying to change my meaning? A square pen, a car that requires you to use three different keys for each door and the trunk are clumsy design. Only an idiot or a prankster would use such design. Of course the clumsy design of evolution works! If it didn't get the basic job done the animal would be dead! Are you suggesting that your god had brain farts throughout his creation week or, maybe, that he is malicious?

Greensnake's picture
John 61X Breezy:

John 61X Breezy:

[[So what’s my point? There are costs to every benefit. You gain one thing, but may lose another. It’s not as simple as saying flip the retina around. The way you accomplish that might make you lose something else. Perhaps octopuses don’t need corneas underwater. And perhaps we do, since our corneas keep a layer of fluid between our lens and the outside world. - John 61X Breezy]]

Is that the best that an omnipotent, omniscient god can do? God has all these marvelous powers and he can't get our eyes wired correctly! Far better to conclude that God doesn't exist or that he is malicious. By the way, there are hundreds of incompetent designs to explain away, all the way down to the molecular level! And, what about all that historical junk that plants and animals carry, the vestigial organs, the genetic throwbacks (implying obsolete genes that are still active to some degree) and the obviously modified parts of ancestors. What about the evolutionary tree? (See my last long post on this thread to understand that.)

You have done a fairly decent job of focusing on the lichen of a tree, but you have not noticed that there is a forest out there!

sajib mohanta 's picture


science follower's picture
mankind once lived in an

mankind once lived in an utopian paradise but because of sin,All disease came into the world. virus came into the world and humanity became sick.

mykcob4's picture
Bullshit! You are an utter

Bullshit! You are an utter fool devout christian. Quit proselytizing.

Algebe's picture
"mankind once lived in an

"mankind once lived in an utopian paradise but because of sin,All disease came into the world."

No, no. First there were diseases. Then mankind evolved. We started out in a "utopia" where we were lunch for leopards and lions. And I doubt whether any of us reached three score and ten.

Did you know that capital letters come at the beginning of sentences? The end of a sentence is marked by a period (full stop), not by a comma. Since there are definitely many different types of viruses "VIruses came into the world..." would be more appropriate.

I would have thought that someone who believed so strongly in a magic book would take greater care over spelling and grammar. Why do you think we use the word "spell" for both magic incantations and orthography? You need to get the words right in order to summon up your demon. Similarly, "grammar" is thought to have the same etymology as "glamour," which originally meant to cast a spell on someone.

Greensnake's picture
simply agnostic:

simply agnostic:

We humans are the latecomers! We provided a new host for the continuing evolution of bacteria and viruses which have been around for billions of years. You are just pontificating on a subject you know nothing about! Save it for the pulpit.

MCD's picture
We used to live in paradise?

We used to live in paradise? Interesting assertion. Please provide proof that this wild claim / assertion is true. Ready? Go

Alembé's picture

When and where was this "utopian paradise" before sin and disease? Please share your hard evidence.

Nyarlathotep's picture
valiya s sajjad - The fact is

valiya s sajjad - The fact is, the only way we infer design is by making an analysis of specified complexity…

Wikipedia - List of topics (in life sciences) characterized as pseudoscience:

  • Baraminology
  • Creation biology
  • Intelligent design
  • Irreducible complexity
  • Specified complexity
...'s picture
I've never heard of Specified

I've never heard of Specified Complexity in my life, nor do I care to know what it is. But I do know that to label things is not to tame them. That's been a dangerous obstacle in science. People think that just because something has a name, that it means we understand it, or even know what we're talking about.

Label something as pseudoscience and you've shut the door to communication. Label somebody as ignorant or brainwashed, and you've shut the door to conversation.

Don't label things. Explain them.

Nyarlathotep's picture
For what it is worth, I've

For what it is worth, I've explained several times why it is non-sense; and linked peer reviewed papers explaining why it is non-sense.

Greensnake's picture


Another excellent source from our "resident research librarian!" I hope that valiya will follow up on this material so as to understand why it is garbage.

The Pragmatic's picture
That would be the day...

That would be the day...

Nyarlathotep's picture
For the newer forum members,

For the newer forum members, I thought I'd post this "blast from the past":

valiya s sajjad - ...there is no known example in the living world of any mutation that causes an increase in information by even a single nucleotide.

valiya s sajjad - Because we know very well that even in harmful mutations - ones that destroy the organism - there is an increase in information...

...'s picture
Post the full paragraph. I

Post the full paragraph. I want to see the context.

Nyarlathotep's picture
I included hyperlinks to the

John 6IX Breezy - Post the full paragraph. I want to see the context.

I already included hyperlinks to the posts in question; just so I wouldn't have to deal with someone asking about the context. Sigh.

...'s picture
How am I supposed to know you

How am I supposed to know you can click on it lol.

Regardless, it seems that for years, you've had a problem understanding context:

"That was part of a very long post in which I was trying to establish that a mutation can never give rise to a new trait. Therefore, that was a superlative statement, which should only be taken in that sense. If I am critiquing an author's style of writing, and I said something like "His books are not worth a penny," you shouldn't take it literally and bring evidence that his books are in fact priced higher than a penny. If you undersand that, then there is no contradiction between A and B." -valiya s sajjad.

I'll give you a better example. If someone says one day, "Trees are orange in the autumn," and the next day they say "Trees are green in the summer." You'll focus exclusively on "what" words they used, and completely ignore "why" they used them.

In your mind the person said: "Trees are ORANGE..." and "Trees are GREEN..." So they've contradicted themselves.

Nyarlathotep's picture
John 6IX Breezy - How am I

John 6IX Breezy - How am I supposed to know you can click on it lol.

I thought it was a safe assumption that a person who posts messages on the internet would be familiar with hyper-links. My bad.

When asked what it would take to convince him that the theory of evolution is correct he said:

valiya s sajjad - If you want to prove evolution, do you know what you have to show me? Not similarities between species. Not that through mutation some organisms get an advantage in survival...What you have to show me is that a mutation causes increase in genetic information. This is an[sic] extremely important. So far, there is no known example in the living world of any mutation that causes an increase in information by even a single nucleotide.

He then went on to double down on his "superlative":

valiya s sajjad - If it had happened so frequently in the past for us to be so evolved, why is it that today we don’t find a single example of a mutation that causes increase in genetic information.

He then tripled down on it:

valiya s sajjad - There is no example of new information evolving through mutation.

quadrupled down:

valiya s sajjad - As long as you can’t show that mutation adds genetic information, all these explanations are mere fairytales[sic].

doubled down again, telling us that adding 6000 bits of information is a loss of information:

valiya s sajjad - What we see here is a loss of information, no addition of information.

He was very specific with what he wanted, repeatedly stating that it wasn't possible. Notice that when his self described "extremely important" statements blew up in his face; they retroactively became "superlative statement[s]".Sidenote: send me that list of your text books cuz it might take a while!

Nyarlathotep's picture
Greensnake - The minute a

Greensnake - The minute a copied gene collects mutations, we have new genetic information. That was your original challenge, wasn't it?

Basically yes:

valiya s sajjad - there is no known example in the living world of any mutation that causes an increase in information by even a single nucleotide

Just keep rereading that statement until you head explodes!

Nyarlathotep's picture
I know that ‘natural

valiya s sajjad - I know that ‘natural selection’ is not random.

Really? In the past you have described natural selection as random chance:

valiya s sajjad - And yet you believe they came into existence through a series of accidents that were random, without ever knowing that there are other systems that are parallelly evolving towards a common purpose. And evolutionists put all the load of these chance events on natural selection.

Nyarlathotep's picture
valiya s sajjad - When Newton

valiya s sajjad - When Newton came up with his theory of gravity, he called it ‘action’ at a distance. He was invoking ‘force’ without being able to explain what was causing the force to exist between objects. When objects are attracted towards each other, it indicates ‘force’ … that is a logical inference.....Similarly, when you SC, it is a logical inference that it is from intelligence.

No. And here is the big difference:
Newton defined force as:
force = mass * acceleration
Therefore; when an object has non-zero mass and has a non-zero acceleration; you can safely conclude it is being acted on by a non-zero force. So the method used to make this 'deduction' is nothing more than simple math.

You will notice that since you refuse to define specific complexity in such a fashion, you can not safely make these kinds of deductions. Instead we just have you demanding that your conclusions are logical consequences of something you haven't even defined! Your conclusions could be 100% justified, but we'll never know if you don't start lifting the veil. This is why I keep asking you for it, because it is really the only way to evaluate your claims.

Nyarlathotep's picture
valiya s sajjad - But how can

valiya s sajjad - But how can you infer ‘random mutation’ and ‘natural selection’ from it?

valiya s sajjad - On what basis are you invoking ‘random/blind’ effects of nature?

valiya s sajjad - All you have to do is provide an example from the natural world where this effect (mutation/selection) is taking place

Now you have gone totally off the rails. Random mutations and natural selection are observed facts. Even if the theory of evolution was shown to be false tomorrow, random mutations and natural selection would still exist. (If the theory of evolution was shown to be false) it would just mean that random mutations and natural selection do not lead to speciation (and presumably a new idea would be needed to explain speciation). It seems you are now tilting at reality itself.

RadicalWhiggery's picture
Design doesn't hinge on a

Design doesn't hinge on a disbelief in evolution. It hinges on a disbelief in the possibility of natural abiogenesis on Earth. Probability would dictate that this phenomenon would be impossible. The only other option would be design. Viruses aren't ignored by theists. They just aren't brought up because they aren't relevant to any design framework. Let's take Christianity for example. In the Christian worldview, humans were perfect, before the fall. After Adam and Eve's sin, they lost this perfection and God gave them up to "vile affections" as stated in Romans 1. This view could easily account for the existence of viruses by attributing it to the fall from perfection. It still seems that design is the most plausible explanation for abiogenesis.

Alembé's picture


Can you please give your probability numbers for:
1) Natural abiogenesis,
2) Intelligent Design (or whatever you consider the theistic opposite of natural abiogenesis)
and how your derived then both.


RadicalWhiggery's picture
"As Coppedge (1973) notes,

"As Coppedge (1973) notes, even 1) postulating a primordial sea with every single component necessary for life, 2) speeding up the bonding rate so as to form different chemical combinations a trillion times more rapidly than hypothesized to have occurred, 3) allowing for a 4.6 billion- year-old earth and 4) using all atoms on the earth still leaves the probability of a single protein molecule being arranged by chance is 1 in 10,261. Using the lowest estimate made before the discoveries of the past two decades raised the number several fold. Coppedge estimates the probability of 1 in 10119,879 is necessary to obtain the minimum set of the required estimate of 239 protein molecules for the smallest theoretical life form.

At this rate he estimates it would require 10119,831 years on the average to obtain a set of these proteins by naturalistic evolution (1973, pp. 110, 114). The number he obtained is 10119,831 greater than the current estimate for the age of the earth (4.6 billion years). In other words, this event is outside the range of probability. Natural selection cannot occur until an organism exists and is able to reproduce which requires that the first complex life form first exist as a functioning unit."


"the estimated number of elementary particles in the universe is 10^80. The most rapid events occur at an amazing 10^45 per second. Thirty billion years contains only 10^18 seconds. By totaling those, we find that the maximum elementary particle events in 30 billion years could only be 10^143. Yet, the simplest known free-living organism, Mycoplasma genitalium, has 470 genes that code for 470 proteins that average 347 amino acids in length. The odds against just one specified protein of that length are 1:10^451."


Greensnake's picture


Missed your last post! These probability arguments make various simplistic assumptions about how life arose, the type of chemical reactions that are possible, and they often assume a randomness that is wholly unjustified. Nobody knows how many pathways might lead to life, let along the details for any of those possible pathways. Nobody has anything close to a good understanding of all the possible reactions. We also need to know more about the ancient environments of the time, a critical piece to the puzzle. In short, such calculations are creationist productions of imagination. Notice that they are pitched to the scientifically illiterate public rather than presented in respectable scientific journals that are peer reviewed.

Greensnake's picture


I disagree with your claim that the odds are impossible for abiogenesis. How can such odds even be calculated if we don't understand the possible ways that life might arise? You have to have a credible model to do a serious calculation, or at least prove the existence of a credible, prohibitive bottleneck. Just because we presently don't know how it happened doesn't mean that it is impossible. Abiogenesis has difficult scientific questions to resolve; God-belief (the real reason for advocating ID) simply ignores the laws of nature. If one faults the former on scientific grounds, one should positively throw out the latter!

It is biological evolution that creates the illusion of intelligent design, and evolution is just as true whether the first life arose from nature or some group of deities. It is the plants and animals that IDers claim to be evidence of real design, so the fact of evolution is central to ID thinking.


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