Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Genesis 19:30-38 King James Version (KJV)
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
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Aside from the disturbing silliness of it, what's your point?
Exactly, the self-explanatory “silly-ness”, when I/you see Christians brag about the infallible word of god, I sometimes wonder if we’re reading the same book LOL! I doubt many Christians will comment on this topic. This post is the result of past hand-palms.
I get it, now. I wasn't reading it as a narrative, but a separate passages.
Hahaha, reminded me of the fun that can be made off that story lol
Welcome back ImFree
Try this, I enjoyed it a lot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6DnujiVCwo
Ha! An old favorite. I just watched it again and then spent 20 minutes rolling on the floor from reading the comments section.
Hey Jeff! Ah Ha! DarkMatter2525 always puts life to scripture. Well....wonder where the christians are with their questions where Atheist's get their morality? This is just one of many examples from the bible where they get theirs!
Just so you know, and don't live in ignorance for the rest of your life.
The word evil there actually mean natural disaster.
Christian don't deny that sin is mentioned in the Bible, i.e. David's Adultery, Peter's Denial, and the example you mentioned. The Bible condemns these acts.
If that rationalization makes you feel better that us fine with me. If you choose to live in denial that is your business. The fictlious god in your bible is evil and the bible is a disaster.
Here are some more examples of the EVIL of your god that does not exist. Have fun rationalizing:
1. God drowns the whole earth.
In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and perhaps unicorns. Only a single family survives. In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns.
2. God kills half a million people.
In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.
3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn.
In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.
4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.
In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.
5. Genocide after genocide after genocide.
In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.
6. God kills 50,000 people for curiosity.
In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.)
7. 3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god.
In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: “Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.” About 3,000 people died.
8. The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God’s rocks.
In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky.
9. God burns two cities to death.
In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.
10. God has 42 children mauled by bears.
In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”)
11. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call.
In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.
12. 3,000 crushed to death.
In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe.
13. A concubine raped and dismembered.
In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.
14. Child sacrifice.
In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites.
15. God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet.
In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.
16. God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods.
In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods.
17. God incinerates 51 men to make a point.
In 2 Kings 1:9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God.
18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s widow.
In Genesis 38:9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow.
19. God threatens forced cannibalism.
In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19:9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children.
20. The coming slaughter.
According to Revelation 9:7-19, God’s got more evil coming. God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth’s population. If he came today
2 things,
1. Just because something is mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean that the Bible condones it. i.e. I could right a book about 9/11 and I certainly wouldn't be condoning it. This thought explains # 11,13,14.
2. A criminal might interpret the justice of a judge to be evil, when in reality the Judgement is actually just. explaining, #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,15,16,17,18,19,20. i.e. If you were alive before the flood, you might say, "How can God allow all this violence to keep going on!" " I won't believe in a God who allows violence!" then when the flood started happening you might curse out, "How can God kill all these people!"
Also, since you believe morality is subjective, what problem to you have with all this anyhow?
You should consider stand up comedy! Your credibility is truly a joke!
When I see Christians perform the immoral tap dance of denial as you displayed above, I’m so proud of being an Atheist. Imfree and not a slave. Your a great poster boy of "don't let this happen to you" for people on the fence realizing they were indoctrinated and duped even if there is no hope for you.
It is interesting to note that the Theist believes the Atheist is indoctrinated and the one captive in his sins, and the Atheist believes that the Theist is indoctrinated and held captive.
The Atheist doesn't have a reason why it is wrong to be indoctrinated, the Theist does.
Here, indulge yourself in a podcast by Seth Andrews called Worshipping Ignorance: http://podbay.fm/show/412308695/e/1338937200?autostart=1
"It is interesting to note that the Theist believes the Atheist is indoctrinated"
Into a nonbelief? If someone can be indoctrinated into atheism, than someone can be indoctrinated into not collecting stamps as well. Atheism has no specific rules, tenets, or doctrine with which one must hold to. How can you be indoctrinated into something that has no doctrines to begin with?
"the one captive in his sins"
Your "sins" are a set of bronze age ideals like not boiling the meat of a baby goat in its mothers milk, for the most part, out of all 613 laws in the old testament only a handful are actually useful or moral in any way. If being a Christian was enough to free you from sin neither your religion, nor your god, would have perpetrated so many of the worst human disasters in history. If Christianity was virtuous or moral, we might expect to see your deity act in such a manner in his own biography, which is precisely the opposite of what we see. If being Christian actually gave someone a better bases or firmer foundations for their morality, then the more Christian the person or society is should be reflected by its rape and murder statistics, which we see precisely the opposite. In every single conceivable benchmarks we have in sociology to determine which societies and groups are more moral or virtuous, the religious tend to always rank almost dead last(barely better than SubSaharan African tribes). While you may BELIEVE that theism somehow has something to do with morality, it simply isn't borne out by any single piece of data we can find, and we ALWAYS find a NEGATIVE correlation between religiosity and morality. If you want to claim that YOUR specific god is the basis of morality, first prove your god, THEN prove that he has fuck all to do with morality. Until you do those two things, not a single person here has any reason to take you seriously.
"the Atheist believes that the Theist is indoctrinated and held captive."
They are raised with in a specific set of doctrines and beliefs, that is quite literally what indoctrination means. If a theist who was brought up in the religion they are in claims they weren't indoctrinated, they have simply failed to grasp what the word actually means.
"The Atheist doesn't have a reason why it is wrong to be indoctrinated, the Theist does."
Considering that theists really can't help but indoctrinate their children and anyone in their care, this is a complete non sequtir, with absolutely no teeth behind it but irony.
Witness1625 uses projection because he (common Christian tactic) holds on to unsupportable beliefs, he attempts to project these onto other people, assigning the thoughts or feelings that he needs to repress to a convenient alternative target.
Thanks Travis for writing this. *Agree +10*
I was stating facts, not making an argument.
but for the sake of argument, Yes, Atheists do indoctrinate the belief of the non-existence of God. Just like someone might indoctrinate a person to not believing in science.
"I was stating facts, not making an argument."
Except that your facts are actually facts and your assertions lead squarely to a presuppositional argument that isn't supported or warranted by any single piece of evidence in existence. It is precisely the same as claiming that gremlins must exist because broken cars exist and you don't know enough to believe they could have broken down any other way. It is ridiculous, circular, and simply lacks all tangibility as an argument.
"but for the sake of argument, Yes, Atheists do indoctrinate the belief of the non-existence of God."
You, my friend, have a very skewed view about how propositions and claims work. YOU are the one making the claim that something exists, you have utterly failed to demonstrate that claim, so we are fully and completely justified in rejecting your claim. Atheism isn't the belief that there is no god, it is the disbelief in god, which is a separate animal entirely. I don't believe in aliens either, they have a very decent chance of existing, but until such time as I am presented with good evidence to believe in them, belief in them would be utterly irrational and unwarranted. So is the belief in any of the thousands of flavors of god, including yours, and for precisely the same reason. You would probably think someone who believed in Zeus, Thor, or L. Ron Hubbard was a bit wacky; we all view you exactly the same way. You, however, seem to think your religion is special and deserves better treatment than a belief that proposes god lives on the planet Kolob, despite the fact that we have absolutely no reason to give it such partial treatment.
We are starting with the null hypothesis, the default position of belief being unreasonable and unwarranted until ample justification is given for it, but you are starting from a bald assertion and pretending these positions are the same. Not only is this blatantly ridiculous, it is also somewhat intellectually dishonest. If someone claimed something even half as unreasonable or unjustifiable as your god, but you did not believe it, I sincerely doubt that you would consider their claim of equal weight to your own. Therein lies the hypocrisy of religion, they are almost all equally ridiculous and fictitious, but pretend that they are special.
"Just like someone might indoctrinate a person to not believing in science."
Some doctrines like young earth creationism require that one reject the vast majority of mainstream science, can you name a single doctrine in atheism that requires something similar? Does being an atheist require one to simply accept all mainstream science? No. Does it require you to believe anything at all? No. All you have to do be an atheist is not believe in a god, that is part of what is so good about it, it takes so little of ones time or money. There are no observances or rituals, no protected beliefs, no doctrinal requirements, nothing like that at all.
bonus points because Witness1615 is a young earth creationist...
Witness, you just proved yourself that the bible is not infallible, or how could it fail to communicate so? Speaking of which, did you ever ask yourself why so many Renaissance depictions of Moses show him with horns like a goat (or a devil)?
Sorry, I need some clarification, I don't quite no what you mean by, "or how could it fail to communicate so? " Do you mean, How could it fail to communicate it's infallibility?
No, I have never asked myself why so many Renaissance depictions of Moses show him with horns like a goat. There are many pics drawn my Atheists that depict much worst.
Ah, yea. My post was a little cryptic, there. What I mean is how can there be such a miscommunication if the book is infallible. Also, how could there have been mistranslations, such as Moses having horns coming out of his head instead of rays of light (hence the sculptures and paintings)?
Okay.
Just because something is controversial, or just because some information is not educated to all people enabling miscommunication doesn't prove it wrong. After all think about all the miscommunication regarding Atheism. Or are you meaning something else?
"Just because something is controversial, or just because some information is not educated to all people enabling miscommunication doesn't prove it wrong."
Very true. However, the only miscommunication regarding atheism is you thinking there is some atheist message, There are atheists with messages, but no atheist message. "A" as a prefix merely means without. I'm sure you already know that.
Now, when did the atheist god say he/she/it wrote an infallible history/instruction book? The Moses thing is not about education, it is about a glaring mistranslation. This is Michelangelo we're talking about here, doing work for the Vatican.
I am not a Roman Catholic, they had a lot worse misinterpretations then Michelangelo's paintings.
Right, your example is what I was referring, many theists believe that atheists have a message to promote. Some do promote a message, good without God, promoting the message that they don't have a message, etc.
Do you believe Catholics aren't Christians? Do you believe they are not saved through the blood sacrifice of god's child? You do know that if it weren't for the Catholic church you would likely not be a Christian, don't you? Without dark ages monasticism and Catholic expansion... never mind.
Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, o̲f̲ ̲m̲i̲s̲u̲n̲d̲e̲r̲s̲t̲a̲n̲d̲i̲n̲g̲ ̲t̲h̲e̲ ̲s̲i̲m̲p̲l̲e̲s̲t̲ ̲a̲r̲g̲u̲m̲e̲n̲t̲s̲ ... in short, means protective stupidity.
sorry the above was a quote from Orwell that I forgot to cite
Where does the Bible condemn Lot for offering his daughters to rapists? I see the Bible praise him (over and over) without a single word of condemnation. (2 Peter 2:7-8;19:8)
Where does the Bible condemn slavery? (Leviticus 25:44-46; Exodus 21:2-6; Exodus 21:7-11; Exodus 21:20-21; Ephesians 6:5; 1 Timothy 6:1-2; Luke 12:47-48) Exodus 21:20-21 says you can beat your slaves to death (let me repeat: D-E-A-T-H), so long as they don't die immediately. That's not moral. That's not amoral. That's utterly, completely, and unequivocally immoral. Yet, that is the law of Moses, supposedly handed directly to him by Yahweh (the Hebrew deity).
Where does the Bible condemn genocide? Indeed, the Yahweh character seems to command genocide on a regular basis. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19; Ezekiel 9:5-7; Jeremiah 51:20-26; Ezekiel 35:7-9; Exodus 23:23; Joshua 8:1-29; Joshua 6:20-21; Jeremiah 50:21-22;
The most common response to what I've said above is to claim the above are taken out of context. So, let me pre-empt that by asking in what context would any of the above be anything other than immoral?
I reject the Bible as a source of moral code because it is completely unsuited and inadequate for the task. If offering to give your daughters to be gang-raped, slavery, and genocide aren't considered "sins," then how does the word have any meaning or value?
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