"And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: 'If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.' . . . When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! . . . After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed." (Judges 11:30–39 NIV)
This is the god that christians worship. Worship of this character is OBSCENE
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If it was not so, god would not have been able to test Abraham by asking to kill his own son, nor would Christians be able to claim that Jesus had sacrificed himself in order to pay of their sin.
The people who wrote the Bible were bloodthirsty savages. What do you expect!
Ahhh. The book of Judges. Definitely not a "How to live your life" book. Does it say that God commanded or even found this pleasing? Jephthah, together with numerous other characters in the Bible, and his actions shouldn't be indicative of what is right or wrong to do. Almost every person in the Bible has done something bad/evil...
Just like in real life.
Whoa-whoa-whoa.... Wait a tick.... So, JoC, you are implying God did NOT condone the sacrifice of his only begotten Son? (Oh, dang-it. Nevermind. My bad. That could not be considered a "human sacrifice", since Jesus was actually God, and therefore not really human. Or something like that, I'm guessing.)
What do you think human sacrifice is? Jesus' death does not tick the boxes for "human sacrifice".
First of all, Jesus willingly gave his life. As opposed to human sacrifice where the victim doesn't have a choice in the matter.
@JoC Re: "Jesus' death does not tick the boxes for "human sacrifice"."
Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night, bud.
How do make that statement? There have been many instances of human sacrifice made willingly for a greater good as well some of the martyrs who refused to renounce their faith which can be classed as a willing sacrifice to their god.
In primitive societies like the hill dwelling worshippers of El and some early pre and celtic cultures it was considered an honor to be chosen as the yearly sacrifice and riches and choice things were given to the sacrifice without let for the year preceding the festival .
Being a martyr doesn't entail a human sacrifice.
Let me bring another analogy.
Say a sadist killer has 10 people in his basement and tells them, if you sacrifice one person, everyone else will live.
- That is human sacrifice.
Say someone volunteers to be the sacrifice...
- That's human sacrifice.
Say a hand grenade fell into the basement. And someone saw that the only way to save everyone else was to throw himself on it to absorb the impact.
- That's self sacrifice.
Well here's a scenario for you; a group of religious people are about to be murdered for their faith as its bloody annoying, their god appears and says..."heeey, kids, come one, don't kill yourselves over me...just chillax. Renounce me, hey you know I'm merciful, right? We can always talk later and in secret". And they all go home to honey and tea.
Instead the Abramaic gods DEMANDS you die rather than renounce your faith as you will be OK in heaven...or not...depending on your 'goodness' score. Its a human sacrifice to a jealous god demanded by faith.
Revelation 6:11 makes my point in Christianity, there are more in the Qu'ran
"Rest for a little while longer, until the number of your fellow servants and your brethren who are to be killed even as you have been, should be completed also."
There is a number of martyrs appointed by god. That number must be fulfilled before the consummation comes. "Rest, says the Lord, until the number is completed who are to die as you have died."
Sounds like a set number of corpses (sacrifices) before god is happy.
What a pathetic attempt at deflecting, but this was the story of a deal the god made in the story. Remember: The deal was: If you help me to win, I will murder and burn the offering. The god did his thing and the warrior paid the fee. If the god thought this was wrong, the god should have changed the deal.... but it didn't.
And the god is held up as a paragon of virtue --- this story has nothing to do with human weakness. My criticism is for the god character of the babble. And dad? Was he condemned as a murderer? Of course not. He is lauded as obedient and faithful.
The bible does not say: When his daughter ran out of the house, Jepth responded "Fuck you god. You knew that my daughter would be the first out the door. I am not going to murder my daughter."
The holy babble does not say... "And the god said: No Shit because what kind of a monster would I be as a god if I accepted a child sacrifice"
Of course that never happened. What we got was exactly the opposite and you worship this character. That is obscene
Careful, MCD. JoC is a slippery ol' cuss. Harder to catch than a greased pig in a mud pit, and more super-limber contortionistic gymnasticsie than a spineless/boneless Cirque du Soleil performer. He's almost supernatural like that.
Where was the deal made? As in both parties agreed?
Remember, Judges is a book which shows how evil the people of Israel had gotten. Jephthah made this vow on his own knowing full well that among the things that would greet him when he came home would be his daughter. In other words, Jephthah was ready to sacrifice his own daughter. This did not come from God.
MCD,
Like all of the biblical stories the Jephthah story is based on one of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 34:12-28. Jephthah's story illustrates the 10th Commandment (Exodus 34:10) about not boiling a young goat in its mother's milk. It also is reinforced in Yeshua's Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:33-37 (NOG) in which he said that a person shouldn't swear an oath =
"33 “You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘Never break your oath, but give to the Lord what you swore in an oath to give him.’ 34 But I tell you don’t swear an oath at all. Don’t swear an oath by heaven, which is God’s throne, 35 or by the earth, which is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, which is the city of the great King. 36 And don’t swear an oath by your head. After all, you cannot make one hair black or white. 37 Simply say yes or no. Anything more than that comes from the evil one."
So by that passage when a person swears an oath on the Bible he's being led astray by the devil. They've made a lot of movies about that where people swear to do something in exchange for a special favor. They are actually making a deal with the devil. (in literature since gods, devils, angels, demons don't exist).
Jephthah actually made this promise knowing full well that his daughter is among the things that would come to him.
His "vow" was a disordered one. It's actually a good example of what not to do... As is the rest of the book of Judges.
Do you think it was evil to commit genocide using a global flood? How about the god of the bible torturing a new born baby to death over 7 days, because it was angered that the baby had been conceived in an adulterous affair?
@MCD
Re: JoC - "In other words, Jephthah was ready to sacrifice his own daughter. This did not come from God."
See? Told ya he is slippery.
Do you even know the purpose that Judges was written?
See Judges 21:25, the last verse of Judges.
"In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in their own sight."
It's a haunting verse which closes a very dark time in the history of Israel
JoC,
Were people better off under the Law of Moses when they could get stoned to death for picking up sticks to make a fire to keep themselves warm on the Sabbath?
Say the ancients knew they aren't allowed to "pick up sticks on the Sabbath". What difference does it make that they do this the day before? I encourages planning ahead.
"Say the ancients knew they aren't allowed to "pick up sticks on the Sabbath". What difference does it make that they do this the day before? I encourages planning ahead."
So if an old man failed to plan ahead, for whatever reason, you think it perfectly moral to stone an old man to death for trying to keep warm? Really?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/human_sacrifice.html
@Sapporo Re: Sacrifice link
Have no fear, Sapporo! I am most confident super-bendie JoC will easily slip, slide, twist, turn, and weasel his way out of those.
Don't let me down, JoC!!! I've got money ridin' on you!
Just read it. It's actually like a a very poorly quoted interview. I think I've explained Jephthah already. Read Judges and it's basically a "what not to do" book. You know how we learn certain lessons from people who've made stupid mistakes... That's Judges.
How about Abraham? Let's look at the text shall we? (Chapter 22)
Earlier in Genesis God and Abraham made a covenant. As long as Abraham stayed faithful to God's commands, Abraham would have a lot of descendants through Sarah. Abraham faltered in chapter 15 of Genesis when he got Hagar pregnant. God asked something of Abraham to see if was still faithful to him. Now, Abraham knows that God will not break his promise. He's even expecting this as he tells his servants in verse 5, "I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and we will come again."
He's fully expecting Isaac to come back down with him. In verse 8, he even tells Isaac that God will provide the lamb that they failed to bring for the sacrifice... which did happen (verse 13).
Another thing of note which we usually don't see is that Abraham was an old man. Isaac, though usually portrayed as a very young boy of 8 or 10 might actually have been much older. In verse 6, we know that Isaac is able to carry heavy firewood needed for the sacrifice. This is not something a young boy can carry. He must've at least been 16 and maybe even as old as 25. Either way, a young man of that age could easily overpower his elderly father... but he doesn't do so. It's quite possible that Isaac knew of al this as well.
The last issue had to do with warfare. Not really about human sacrifice. Maybe some other time.
JoC - "In other words, Jephthah was ready to sacrifice his own daughter. This did not come from God."
But God did not stop it from happening so I can think God was not displeased by the human sacrifice. Why if not let it happen? and being all-knowing, it seems it made it all that way just to laid responsibility on Jephthah while enjoying a sacrificial young virgin.... weasely God...
What about crucifying Jesus as a human sacrifice for the vicarious redemption of sin? I don't believe it happened this way obviously, but does anyone think this is moral? The whole idea is repugnant.