Here are some arguments against current scientific ideas about Near Death Experiences:
First, Lack of Oxygen to the brain:
Hogan: Lack of oxygen causes stupor without memories of the experience. People experiencing NDEs report enhanced consciousness not stupor and they remember their NDE. "Dr. Fred Schoonmaker, a cardiologist from Denver, had by 1979 carried out investigations of over 2,000 patients who had suffered cardiac arrests, many of whom reported NDEs. His findings showed that NDEs occurred when there was no deprivation of oxygen." The primary features of acceleration-induced hypoxia, however, are myoclonic convulsions (rhythmic jerking of the limbs), impaired memory for events just prior to the onset of unconsciousness, tingling in the extremities and around the mouth, confusion and disorientation upon awakening, and paralysis, symptoms that do not occur in association with NDEs. Moreover, contrary to NDEs, the visual images Whinnery reported frequently included living people, but never deceased people; and no life review or accurate out-of-body perceptions have been reported in acceleration-induced loss of consciousness.
Parnia raises another problem: When oxygen levels decrease markedly, patients whose lungs or hearts do not work properly experience an “acute confusional state,” during which they are highly confused and agitated and have little or no memory recall. In stark contrast, during NDEs people experience lucid consciousness, well-structured thought processes, and clear reasoning.
Next: Brain activity
NDEs cannot be caused by brain activity during CPR because CPR patients report confusion and amnesia while NDErs report lucid experiences. NDEs often begin before CPR is administered and the quality of consciousness and the pattern of events in NDEs does not change once CPR is started. Also, if consciousness in NDEs is caused by CPR, the patients should remember the pain of compressions and cracked ribs that sometimes occur during CPR, but NDErs do not feel the pain from CPR.
Finally, according to a Neurosurgeon named Greenfield: ""It’s very unlikely that a hypoperfused brain (someone with no blood flow to the brain), with no evidence of electrical activity could generate NDEs. Human studies as well as animal studies have typically shown very little brain perfusion (blood flow) or glucose utilization when the EEG is flat. There are deep brain areas involved in generating memories that might still operate at some very reduced level during cardiac arrest, but of course any subcortically generated activity can’t be brought to consciousness without at least one functioning cerebral hemisphere. So even if there were some way that NDEs were generated during the hypoxic state (while the brain is shut off from oxygen), you would not experience them until reperfusion (blood flow) allowed you to dream them or wake up and talk about them."
What do atheists have to say about these arguments for an afterlife?
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Pure and utter bullshit. That's what I say.
I don't see anything that proves a god whatsoever.
did you even read all of the description?
All of them.
The people who report NDEs are by definition survivors of a serious medical event. They have typically been sedated or anethetized and then regained consciousness in strange surroundings, with no knowledge of how they got there. They report their NDEs after they recover, not while they are experiencing them. In addition, most people have heard stories about NDEs, so they're part of our cultural milieu, like flying saucers and ghosts.
We know that the human memory is very unreliable. Even under normal conditions, we unconsciously form false or distorted memories. There is also evidence that people in comas can be aware of their surroundings, including sounds.
So which is more likely: a supernatural event indicating the existence of an afterlife, or a false memory formed by a mind traumatized by a serious medical event?
Right; almost by definition they are not of sound mind and body.
that's a good answer, although Dr. Long also says this about anesthesia:
NDEs cannot be explained by partial anesthesia because a partial anesthesia experience is not at all like an NDE.
Rather than the type of coherent NDEs you read here, anesthetic-awareness results in a totally different experience.
...
Those who experience anesthetic-awareness often report very unpleasant, painful and frightening experiences. Unlike NDEs which are predominately visual experiences, this partial awakening during anesthesia more often involves brief and fragmented experiences that may involve hearing but usually not vision.
... you just don’t have near-death experiences that are predominately hearing but no vision.
"anesthetic-awareness results in a totally different experience"
I'm not talking about anesthetic awareness, which is a horrible and tragic experience, but in a totally different category.
I don't think NDE memories are formed during the actual medical event. Patients report them after the event when they are already recovering. Someone who's in cardiac arrest can't report anything at the time, so NDEs are always memories, not reports of events in progress. Patients' memories of their trauma are almost certainly distorted by the disorientation that comes with serious trauma. The patients feel that they are remembering something that happened during their medical events, but that isn't necessarily so.
NDE's don't prove a god exist.
but would you say they prove a soul exists?
Nope.
absolutely not.
People commonly have dreams about being in public without their clothes. Is that proof that a space alien who has economic interests in the textile industry is manipulating peoples dreams to make money? That is more or less the kind of leap you are making.
yeah but how then, does a dying brain pick up activity and create such a lucid experience? Research shows that usually, oxygen deprivation or excess carbon dioxide creates weird, uncomfortable states that make very little sense. Also, there are tons of Out of Body Experiences that have been verified where someone sees what is going on far away from them, and later get it verified. I think that my description for this topic has yielded together all the strong NDE points. That being said, I will be fair and list a few of the NDE shortcomings as well:
1) Dr. Long says that 96% of the time, people encounter dead relatives in NDEs. This implies that 4% of the time people see living people in NDEs.
2) It is possible to have NDEs when one is not even close to death. Some examples include jumping off of bridges, or almost crashing a car, etc.
3) Although NDEs are very similar, research shows that they do not occur in a fixed order. On top of that, there are about 9 common potential elements for NDEs ex: Out of body experience, having a life review, communicating telepathically, meeting deities or dead relatives. Statistically, only about 4 of these elements take place in a person's NDE, and it could be any 4 of these. Therefore, some inconsistencies exist.
I just can't seem to comprehend how they could take place, as even some neurosurgeons say they have to be real as a brain with no detectable activity could create them.
@Russian-Tank
Absolutely not. It only proves that people have a dream that is influenced by different environmental factors.
@mykcob4 I think that makes sense, but we still have out of body experiences, which are a bit harder to explain away.
@Russian-Tank
Not at all. Out of body experiences are related to hallucinations that anybody and everybody can experience.
My Father suffered from wild visions that led to his death. Doctors explained to me that my father's brain had plaque that caused interference with his neural pathways. The brain reacted by trying to make new pathways. In the meantime, subconscience memory tries to take over. What usually emerges is a conglomeration of very realistic visions. My father saw things that were not there. Interesting to note is that he never saw something that he had not seen before.
Take all these people that claim NDEs or out of body experiences OBEs, they can only describe something that they have in some way experienced before. They may think it was a completely new experience but in reality, it is always something that they are vaguely familiar with.
I have had OBEs. I never attributed it to a soul or a god, not even remotely.
Also just because you can't explain something doesn't prove that there is a god or a soul. It simply means that you don't have an answer.
It doesn't prove a soul.
No. But you are welcome to provide proof that a soul exists if you would like to do so
Hi R-T,
The brain works in mysterious ways.
I know, but it seems that saying that the brain works in mysterious ways is not exactly attempting to answer why these vivid experiences can take place. I think that atheists in general are very logical thinkers, but I feel that they brush off NDEs too easily, as there is a lot of evidence (as listed above) that the current scientific explanations don't cut it.
The best way to address the issue is further study of normal neurological function that can then be compared with abnormal activity. Though gathering data on people undergoing a so-called NDE will be difficult.
so does this mean all the information I provided doesn't convince you of a soul?
Correct. It's not my area of specialty, but I currently think that consciousness is an emergent property of neurological activity. When the neurochemistry quits for good, we fade to total blackness. Soulless, isn't it?
Not to mention unethical since of course the subject would need to be ''near death''.
@Russian-Tank: "there is a lot of evidence "
Are there documented NDEs in which people learned information that they couldn't otherwise have known? Have they seen places they've never visited and provided descriptions that could later be confirmed? There are plenty of stories like that in tabloid newspapers and TV psychic shows, but to the best of my knowledge, none have been confirmed scientifically. People who have NDEs always see things they already knew, such as dead relatives. I think they're distorted memories, nothing more. They certainly aren't evidence of a soul.
Tell me there's a science that can nail down all brain activity with certainty and inarguable interpretation. Then tell me that same science speaks to supernatural causation. Then tell me this is proof of revelation. But, before you tell me these things please let me get my popcorn and a beverage for I will certainly be seated in a theater when this scripted announcement is made.
yeah but Pitar, Dr. Long has through roughly debunked the oxygen theory.
not in the slightest
I realize science is not currently proposing such a notion but unless it is the only entity that does, we are not hearing anything different than the imagination that theists have always kept fully engaged. More of the same conjuring, wishful thinking, and otherwise rooted strictly in the imagination.
Let see if I read this correctly:
A person remembering and then recounting what they think they experienced, during a major traumatic event, that their is zero evidence for occurring, beyond that traumatized person's personal recollection of the NDE, is proof of the soul and or god?
Even you pointed out via studies there is often times NDE experiences people talk about, when their is zero brain activity or an oxygen starved brain that cannot possibly function normally during the time they feel they had an NDE. And you take those findings as proof of the soul? Why not the much more sensible approach that is proof that the memory was not real, that the memory was formed after the event occurred. Or is it suddenly when it comes to NDE's that all biological rules and chemistry etc are simply thrown out the window and the logical explanation, (that the simple logic that the person is confused must also be discarded??)
This Nuerosurgeon Eben Alexander experienced an NDE. There are opponent (always) who tried to debunk him but he stood by his story. As far as NDE is concerned he is the one to look because of his expertise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpJoM1Yvm-Y
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