Hello, I am new to the forum. My question or confoundment is how can smart people be so stupid? I have listened to debates and talks by many people that appear to have great minds but are limited by their faith. People like William Lane Craig and Ben Shapiro. How can people with such a great understanding of most things in the world be drowned by their faith? All religious text are great pieces of literature that can expand ones horizons, but how can these scholars find any truth in these texts?
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Read Kurt Vonnegut's "Mother Night." One of the characters tackles this question in relation to Nazis. How can seemingly intelligent people subscribe to such a foul and stupid doctrine? The answer is that their minds are like intricate machines in which teeth have been deliberately filed off the cog wheels, causing them to jump backwards or forwards erratically. Vonnegut calls this the "cuckoo clock in hell."
The teeth are obvious truths that we all know and understand. For example, I know that gay people are above all people. They just want to live in peace and find love, like all of us. That tooth is still on my cog wheel. The folks at the Westboro Baptist Church have filed that tooth off, so they can viciously persecute gays while still being basically decent people in other areas.
It takes a lot of hard work to get those teeth filed down, but Christians have been doing it for centuries. The result is a weird ability to turn awareness of reality on and off at will. That's why you can have Christian geologists, astrophysicists, biologists, surgeons, etc.
That's my theory, anyway. Feel free to pick holes in it.
"For example, I know that gay people are, above all, people."
Ugghh, don't remind me. At times I find it hard to cope with being part of the same species that made a millionaire out of a guy selling pet rocks, that kills each other over paper that it calls valuable, and that thinks some colors are gay. I don't even like pink. And I'm pretty sure pink doesn't like dick.
But then again, humans also make pretty good BLTs, so that's a major thumbs up.
@Jared Re: Pet rocks
Hey, Jared. Don't knock the pet rocks, dude. I got a pet rock out of a gumball machine when I was eight years old. I named him George, and he became my best friend. Took him with me almost everywhere, as he was quite comfortable riding in my pocket. He was very low maintenance, and never ever pooped on the carpet, even if left home alone for days. And he was always a grateful little fellow. He shuddered to think that he could have possibly spent his life as part of a gravel driveway, or - worse - mixed in to the concrete of a sewer drain. I still have him to this day, although he has resided happily in my favorite keepsake box for the past several decades. Oh, and just so you know, the term "Pet Rock" is no longer politically correct. They now prefer to be called "Creatures of Compacted Sediment". (Lengthy title, I know. But he is possibly millions of years old, so I do believe he has earned it.)
Welcome, Satan! (Got to say it again! YES!)
Basically just wanted to say "Hello" real quick and let you know it's nice to have you here with us. Wish I could offer you some insight concerning your OP, but I'm afraid I am just as perplexed about it as you are. I like Algebe's theory, though. Makes sense, and he is pretty good with stuff like that. Anyway, make yourself at home, and we'll be seeing you around in other discussions.
I cant say for sure but I think maybe a lot of preachers start off believing passionately and honestly, then, as they grow older they either drop off the circuit or drown the nagging voices with alcohol, drugs and sex like the Bakker. They cant afford to give up without losing their lifestyle, however much it costs them. Cognitive dissonance at its showy finest. The survivors just get old and set in their ways, they stop listening, they stop responding and just repeat by rote, like old game show hosts, their earlier more successful pizazz. They settle for the money and the kudos. Most preachers are very good entertainers and share the same traits..god help me I've been doing it since I was 10, adopting a character for 16 week run or filming for 6 months is ok but I wouldn't like their lives when the character has to be in place 19/24, 7/7...BUT having said that there are fine actors whom I have worked with who remain in character however long we are working...and that is scary stuff.
Never assume stupidity in others. That's a sure way to ensure stupidity in yourself. It causes you to block yourself inside your bubble. It ends the conversation before it's begun.
@John 61X Breezy: "Never assume stupidity"
Very true. That reminds me of something Mark Twain's supposed to have said.
"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
What is interesting about Religion and God is that it is not a "Smart" or "Intelligent" thing. It is an emotional thing. Any and all psychological studies will tell you that strong emotions influence decision making skills negatively. If the Church or any religion can instill in you an emotional reaction to their deity or to anyone challenging that institution or deity they can keep you as a member of that congregation. Religions instill strong emotional reactions in people, that directly affects their decision making ability.
" Rational thinking and decision-making does not leave much room for emotions.[2] In fact, emotions are often considered irrational occurrences that may distort reasoning."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotions_in_decision-making
Religion is the opposite of emotional, sometimes perhaps even more than it should be. At least in Christianity your emotions are in second place. You resist temptations, you ignore your feelings, you put away the carnal. Many of the great figures in Christianity suffered from depression first, mainly because that's what happens when you go to the extreme in denying yourself and repress your emotions. Emotions are important, and Christians tend to ignore them the wrong way.
You're also wrong about rational thinking not leaving much room for emotions. Look up studies done by Damasio. Rational decisions are literally impossible without emotions. Emotions are informative, they are in themselves intelligent, you need them to be rational.
This reminds me of the debate about whether intelligence is something people have or lack, of if it is a variety of attributes of the mind. It may depend on the exact definition of intelligence.
A brilliant mechanic might seem unable to learn higher maths. There are some high functioning autistic people who are brilliant. One is a superb linguist but cannot look after himself in the modern world. It is obviously possible to be clever at some things and not understand some of the most obvious things like religions are all man-made superstitions. An egotist can be elected POTUS. Some voted for him thinking he'll turn the great USA into "America [USA] made great again". How stupid is that?!
"Everyone is stupid from everyone else's viewpoint" is how I observe it.
It isn't that religionists don't think. "Give me a child under 7..." seems to be what happened. I was such a child but saw straight through it. It appears that not everyone can do that.
Except that the idea of "Give me a child under 7..." has been abandoned by psychologists. Its simply not the way the world works. Perhaps evident here by your ability to "see straight through it."
A brilliant mechanic, unless having some disorder, is still able to learn higher maths. Austism tends to lead to obsession, obsession tends to lead to expertise, so their "brilliance" comes at a price, they are slaves to it. But then again, we are talking about pathology here, so this example can be excluded. The superb linguist can still learn to look after himself in the world.
My theory, perhaps because of my background, is to see all brains as calculators. They're all striving to get the right answer. If the calculator is broken, then the answer can only go so far, but it is still attempting to get there. If the calculator isn't broken, the next question to ask is if the calculator has all the necessary information. I am of the belief that I'll come to the same conclusions as other people do, if I knew what they knew, and didn't know what they didn't know.
That applies to your Trump example as well. Those who voted for him both know something that you don't know, or don't know something that you know. It was hardly as simple as people believing he'll make America great again, like blind sheep. Most people viewed Hillary as a worse option. Better to have a president that wears their evil on their sleeve, than one that hides it behind their smile. Other's voted for him, not because of him, but because of the party he represents. For example, if you truly believe that an abortion is the killing of a real living baby, why on earth would you ever vote democratic? So the vote Trump.
@John. Re: "If I knew what they knew..."
I liked that explanation. Great insight.
For what it is worth, "higher maths" is easier than highschool math (imo).
A little addage I learned a long time ago:
"Be careful when arguing with an idiot. After a few minutes an outsider watching may not be able to tell the difference between you and the idiot." *chuckle*
John: Except that the idea of "Give me a child under 7..." has been abandoned by psychologists. Its simply not the way the world works.
It is the way indoctrination works and it is the way religious indoctrination works, as many psychologists would no doubt agree. It also explains why the parents and children's religion are usually the same. Christian parents have "Christian" children, Hindus indoctrinate their children into Hindu superstitions.
Keep wriggling, John.
For indoctrination to work, the concept of a blank slate would need to be true. Behaviorists used to see children that way, I think Skinner used to brag that he could take a child and turn him into a saint or a sinner, a doctor or a burgler.
Then the cognitive revolution happened, as well as the genetic revolution. One showed the slate isn't blank, the other showed that people have minds, capable of thinking and deciding.
Ironically enough this notion is clear in Scripture. David's son tried to kill him. Better yet read Kings or Chronicles. You can see how each successor to the throne made their own decisions. A religious king would be followed by an evil king, and an evil king followed by a righteous king.
So no I don't think most psychologists would agree with you. Those that do might still be clinging to old Freudian ideas.
I think psychologists would agree with me, though they may correct me technically as to elements that were indoctrination, conditioning or manipulation, but it doesn't take a psychologist to see why people believe that god(s), witches, soothsayers and so forth exist.
I always laugh how "everything is clear in scripture" to the duly initiated.
Why do I bother to read your posts John?! There's nothing to learn from them.
Well.. I graduate tomorrow. Guess with what degree lol.
Congratulations, John, on your achievement!
I was born into a rigid Catholic family. Began to form a social/ political/moral consciousness around 9 years old in 1968. I lived adjacent to Brandeis University near Boston. A hotbed of youthful dissent. At 11 years old I was arguing with priests and nuns and never went to confession again. At 13 I used John Lennon's "Imagine" as a thought experiment and became an atheist. My parents soon after became Pentecostal and did so without me. My point is this, I may have been a blank slate but their were other influences besides religion. If you learn early to distrust and question authority you have absorbed a useful skill into your cognitive tool kit.
good for you John
Congratulations, John. Where from?
@John 61X breezy " I graduate tomorrow."
Congratulations!
Congrats on your graduation, John. Despite my loving to learn new things, I never had the patience for college. My hat is off to anybody who can get through it. Awesome. *chuckle*
Oh wow I wasn't expecting so many congratulations lol. Thanks everyone.
Of course. We love education, remember? Endeavors in the academic world are cause for celebration.
I like to give credit where credit is due. A great accomplishment is a great accomplishment, regardless of which "side" a person is on.
Good for you! Congrats, John.