I want to learn as much as I can and would like to be able to debate theists, I think this will happen when I come out to my family.
How important do you think it is for me to know the bible, as an atheist? I would like to at least read through the whole thing. If you agree that this is important, do you know any good audiobooks for the bible so I can listen while I'm doing other stuff.
Are there any good online courses on logic, preferably free, because I would like to gain the tools for pointing out flaws in others arguments and help to refine my own.
If there is anything else I should study or learn please let me know. I want to learn as much as I can do I can argue back when I tell my family I don't believe anymore.
Another question, slightly off topic, while this forum is great I was wondering if anyone would know of any groups in Australia. It would be good to connect with people more local to me.
Thanks for all the answers!
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Hi I Ape
What part of Australia? Its a big place mate...
Yes it is a good idea to know the bible, but you can buy books here like the Annotated Bible etc which will give you enough ammo for your day to day theist.
As atheist you don't have to prove anything, when your family make a claim, merely say, "that's fine, you have a right to your opinion as I have a right to mine, but I do not believe you. Do you have evidence for that claim?" Remember the Bible is the claim not the evidence.
I live in Victoria. I've just moved out of Melbourne. Thanks for the reply, even though I could say "prove it" I would like to point out how Christianity is wrong and immoral.
@ i a
I hear you, I'm in WA ...wrong and immoral? Cruel, nasty, misogynistic, genocidal...and more! Annotated bible will help you there, also there is a list of verses published by Arakish that lists every verse dealing with cruelty, infanticide, murder, fratricide...ah...knock yourself out, look up Arakish profile and scroll through his list of posts...you will find it!
Hi Ape, I'm from Sydney so AR seems to have this continent pretty well covered.
If you can navigate to the Microsoft Store online, there is a free app called Open Course which has quite a lot video lectures in a whole range of subjects from respected universities. Among them are two full course lectures on the Old and New Testament I found invaluable for learning about the history the bible. These are not religious but critical literature and historical assessments of the scriptures. Christine Hayes does a pretty thorough research of the Old Testament and Dale Martin handles the New Testament.
To get an idea as to why and just how ingrained the bible is in English history and literature I recommend you read Barbara Tuchmann's "Sword and Bible" You can find a free pdf online if you look hard enough or your local library might have a copy. Any of Tuchman's books are worth the time to read, she was one the great history researchers and writers.
I recently recommended here in AR a free pdf which offers the first three chapters of Richard Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible,
https://biblebrisket.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/first-3-chapters-of-who....
That should make your eyes pop.
That should occupy you for awhile.
Cheers.
@ "How important is it for me to know the bible?" Do you want to sling bible quotes back and forth? If not, no reason at all. Simply ask the question what do you believe and why? Then you should understand "Logical Fallacies." All arguments for the existence of all gods or God are based on logical fallacies. If you do not know the fallacy, post it here and just about everyone on the site can point it out to you. Understanding the Null-hypothesis is another good idea as well as "The Burden of Proof." Get these down and you are off to a really good start whether you know the Bible or not. They will also be extremely beneficial in your everyday life.
How important is studying The Bhagavad Gita?
I’ve read the whole thing. For the most part, it’s terribly boring, punctuated occasionally by some pretty creepy stuff.
If you’re interested in reading it, I’d suggest an annotated version. I read Asimov’s annotated version (admittedly many years ago) and found it informative.
The bible is a key part of world history, and thus I would suggest being acquainted with it for that reason.
@Intelligent Ape …..
From my perspective knowledge of the Bible is vital in confronting Christianity …..
Consider.... there is no God …. thus no human being (living or dead) has ever been in direct communication with said deity..
So the only reference they have for their beliefs is their texts …. the Bible.
So you are going to be challenged with quotes and selected verses …… you need to at least be able defend your position against these attacks …… indeed for preference you need to be in a position to stop their attack and throw it back by launching your own .
The Bible being man made is full of errors and outright lies …. find them , remember them ,use them.
Its not so difficult... you know many of them already... but you don't recognise them for what they are..... for instance....
Many consider the two ,obviously different ,versions of the Nativity to be no more that the same story viewed from two different perspectives.
BUT even the most cursory reading of the two Nativities cannot fail to reveal two entirely different narratives ,and both completely fabricated.
Consider....
Matthew ....
Wise men and slaughtered innocents ,but no shepherds or angels.
The "Holy Family debunks in the middle of the night for Egypt.
Luke ....
Here we get Angels , shepherds AND a heavenly choir.
But no wise men and no mass infanticide.
The Holy Family leaves for Jerusalem ,to present the child in the Temple , then returns to Nazareth.
Now which is it......? Egypt or Jerusalem .....? it surely cannot be both.
There are of course so very many more of these "problem verses" …… but you need to find them for yourself to make them your own , to build your own lines of defence and attack.
I would suggest you peruse this site.....
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
Hope this helps.
@Intelligent Ape: How important is it for me to know the bible?
How important was it for the Allies to crack the Nazi Enigma code machine? Know your enemy.
Because the majority of Xtians actually know little about the Bible, they easily fall prey to any con-man who puts a Reverend in front of his name. By knowing their magic book, we can beat these frauds at their own game and stop them demanding ever more privilege and power.
The widely read New International Version of the Bible has, in numerous places, translated (deliberately mistranslated!) the Greek and Hebrew text so as to introduce violent and unpleasant imagery which did not exist in previous translations.
The rise of science posed a threat to the power the Christian world … so they made the Bible "nastier".
They even produced Greek New Testaments that they claimed were the original texts that the NIV was translated from that are really translations back into the Greek of the NIV and claimed these texts to be proof that the NIV is a faithful translation.
@ SC007
Who are 'they'? And exactly when did these violent interpolations occur? Have you checked them against the oldest codex? Or the second oldest complete codex?
Do not worry, I know you never answer....
Ah SeniorCitizen007, never met a conspiracy he didn't like!
This is an awesome course about the New Testament.
https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL389844840243140C
This actually looks interesting./ Thanks.
Good on you Peurii, this is the same new testament lecture I made in my earlier post. I've never looked it up on youtube but when I checked out the other old testament lecture, boom
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=christine+hayes+old+testament
there it is.
Brilliant. Thanks for this. I could have saved many years reading and x referencing ....
It's important, if for no other reason, to show that you've at least considered the theist's point of view. If you happen to engage an honest one, they will be more likely to consider your comments seriously. That being said, I favor the NIV version because it's an easier read.
It's interesting, however, that each time you pick up the bible that you may recognize a new and wonderful contradiction.
The most glaring problem, contradiction, inconsistency, etc, is what I consider to be the most important subject matter in the whole of "god's word"! Jesus's resurrection! You would think that the one story in the bible of such importance to a believer as the resurrection -could get their story straight! It takes a bible "scholar" to sift through the accounts in the gospels to understand what should be the one part of the bible that should be crystal clear. Yet when you read the resurrection stories in the gospels, you walk away scratching your head!
Sorry for the mini rant, but whoever penned this stuff should've emailed Peter to see what the official version was.
Thanks everyone got the advice and resources. I have a lot to go away and learn.
Why would it be? Christainity does not exclusive rights to wish granting magic sky daddyies
Hm. I tried to read it, and from a historic standpoint - the way people lived and the things they actually believed, some of the geography, countries and cities, etc. might be interesting but I don't see it as important to arguing your perspective. Since I only ever learned the basic children's bible stories, as soon as I learned about Santa and the Tooth Fairy, they seemed like stories meant to teach naughty children how to behave. I didn't believe the Bible stories any more than I believed Dr. Suess characters were real. They were too far-fetched to my logical little mind. Stick into a snake? Part oceans? Get real. But Christians will defend it saying either that it's not literal or that Christ can do anything. Most of them argue that the Bible is the proof - the "Word of God" and quote the Bible, but I don't believe the Bible as anything more than some historic writings coupled with some legends passed down through the years with a little aesop's fables mixed in. Therefore knowing it doesn't help argue one way or the other, but it is a significant work of literature - why not read the other religious guide books as well? It's really just an example of people needing a way to explain things they don't understand yet and a way to enforce a social code within a group.
So take the Bible out of the equation and ask what makes them think there IS a God, without referring to the Bible. You are likely to hear that they "feel" the presence of God, feel him working in their life. I think it's all pretty random because good people can live horrid lives and bad people can have pretty good luck in life, but any good thing they will say is directly because of God and their faith while anything bad, God helped them through (i.e.: Footprints). The final answer is faith. They believe, they take it on their faith that their experience with the divine is real. You just can't argue with that. Why bother?
I almost exclusively use the Bible. I am not interested in countering quote for quote but rather asking why do you believe this is true. I also work in that I can not believe when both quotes that contradict one another. As it does very often I know that it can not be inspired by a God.
The old testament was compiled and edited after the time of the Assyrian invasion of the northern kingdom of Israel (722BCE) and well after the Babylonian invasion of the southern kingdom of Judah (587BCE).
It comprised of all the myths and legends of the twelve tribes, the ten from the kingdom of Israel and the two from the kingdom of Judah and all the tales from Adam and Eve, the Tower of Babel, the Flood, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (renamed by his god as Israel, hence the 'children of Israel') and Esau, Joseph and the supposed migration of the 'children of Israel' to Egypt and their eventual Exodus with Moses and the settling of Canaan and the kingships of Saul, David and Solomon were included in what eventually became the old testament. The differences in the same tales from each kingdom stemmed from the particular politics and hatreds between the two kingdoms that split the once united nation after Solomon basically undermined David's very diplomatic endeavours to keep it all together.
That's why there is two versions of the Garden of Eden, two of the Flood, etc and why there are so many contradictions throughout. Why? Because the ten tribes of Israel in the north were virtually wiped from history, the Assyrians were real bad people, no tolerance whatsoever, and its not like no-one knew this invasion was coming, but it was still a disturbing shock for those left behind.
And after 722 BCE the priests of Judah were astute enough to know it was only a matter of time before their kingdom would be invaded. The plan was to unite Judah and the refugees and survivors of the Assyrians through the myths and legends of their loosely worshipped god. They dared not leave out any version or even edit them for continuity. They didn't want anyone offended.
And the contradictions weren't seen as a problem, leading to disbelief in their god. Contradictions just kept people guessing and made it hard to nail down any issue and also created a certain mystery and religions need a huge dose of mystery to keep people guessing and it gave the rabbis heaps to talk and argue about.
One thing that's very intriguing is that it is not until just before 538BCE before the Jews were freed from Babylon, that the first claim in the bible that there is only one god is made, in Isaiah 45:21 "No god was formed before me, nor will be after me. I, I am Yahweh, there is no other saviour but me." What took him so long to get that into writing?
.
Before then it is only the priests who really held any belief in or knowledge of Moses, Exodus, the 10 Commandments or the 613 mitzvots. Even the first of the ten commandments declared "Thou shalt worship no god before me" not "I am the only god" and so virtually every one, in both kingdoms, were still worshipping Baal, Ishtar, and other older deities, which was the explanation for why their god allowed them to be taken into slavery.
They had neglected him and he never wrote the bible..
Hi Intelligent Ape. Kewl screen name. That is what all of us are.
As Old Man said, I revamped the list of verses for easier printing here: God's Nastiest Turd
For the one located here on AR: God's Nastiest Turd
Just turn off graphics when printing if you don't want them. Or if using Firefox, you simply choose File < Save Page As … then select Web Page, complete in the Save as type dropdown.
rmfr
And also, how can you argue against what you don't know?
Thus, yeah, it is very important to know the Bible if you are going argue against it.
rmfr
Great question. Scroll up and ask v a p o r w a v e