This must be a dilemma for feminists??

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Terminal Dogma's picture
This must be a dilemma for feminists??

...and the left, no judgement on my part so brave, you go girl all 100+ kg 6ft +. Hope zhe doesn't kill some other girl in a tackle. I wouldn't want my gf getting in an on field punch up with zhe.

This link should work.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/aflw/afl-to-decide-if-transgender-...

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Algebe's picture
That story reminds me of

That story reminds me of Roberta Muldoon in "World According to Garp" (played by John Lithgow in the movie).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlZUBUSKbFk

chimp3's picture
That's right! The equality of

That's right! The equality of women in society depends on them competing in stupid sports!!

Sushisnake 's picture
@Chimp

@Chimp

Apparently LGBTI equality depends on it, too. "All part of the left's great leap forward." Perhaps it'll be a Hunger Games-type deal?

Terminal Dogma's picture
All part of the left's great

All part of the left's great leap forward.

chimp3's picture
I am a feminist. I do not see

I am a feminist. I do not see how making life more interesting hurts social progress.

Terminal Dogma's picture
I think zhe has an awesome

I think zhe has an awesome jawline most guys would envy.

Sushisnake 's picture
Apparently transgender women

Apparently transgender women don't retain the strength of their former gender. It diminshes rapidly once they start HRT. By the time the transition is complete, they have the same strength as cisgender women.

And speaking of cisgender women, two of my female friends are 6 feet tall. My daughter-in-law's 5'11". I'm average height and weight, so all three are much bigger and stronger than me: should they be banned from playing sport, too,  because they have an 'unfair' advantage?

Perhaps the various sports and sporting codes would do well to look at the science instead of going with their gut? Particularly now that we know biological sex isn't binary to begin with.

 https://www.quora.com/Do-transgender-women-have-the-same-upper-body-stre...
 https://www.shape.com/lifestyle/mind-and-body/how-does-transitioning-aff...

 https://theconversation.com/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advan...

 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-09/transgender/9634496

Unless of course all the scientists are part of the vile leftist plot to take over the world. The religious right certainly think so.

Edit: Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention, TermDog. I've never had cause to look it up before because I couldn't care less about sport.

Terminal Dogma's picture
You don't get much about

You don't get much about hormone therapy or muscle grow.

"

By the time the transition is complete, they have the same strength as cisgender women."

Lol

And I suppose this zhe has zeo advantage over the gals. Watching women muster all their strength to smile and clap in support of this "women" as she knocks them out of the national team that they devoted their entire existence to be on.

Idiot pulled such huge weights in the first attempt no actual female could have come close did not need anymore attempts to win but went heavier and got injured.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/09/transgender-weightlifter-l...

Sushisnake 's picture
@Terminal Dogma

@Terminal Dogma

The Guardian article you linked to says '..the International Olympic Committee guidelines are without proper scientific basis' and 'A spokesman for the Cameroon team, Simon Molombe, said they also objected “in principle”. Being transgender, like being gay, is illegal in Cameroon.' and "  ' “A man is a man and a woman is a woman and I know a lot of changes have gone through, but in the past Laurel Hubbard used to be a male champion weightlifter,” the Samoa head coach, Jerry Wallwork, told the ABC.'

It also says she lost. Didn't you read it, TermDog? It doesn't support your position.

Re: " You don't get much about hormone therapy or muscle grow."

I've given you four articles that show you know a great deal less than I do. It's not me you're arguing with - it's science.

http://jrci.cgpublisher.com/product/pub.301/prod.4/m.2/fid=1836884/R15_4...?

Terminal Dogma's picture
As I said it's first lift

As I said it's first lift would have won, it tried to win more and got the injury and couldn't go on.

I truly feel sorry the non artificially enhanced women that did not get the chance to represent their country in the pinnacle event of their sport, truly a shameful robbery for those women that got denied the chance to compete because political correctness. Nobody seems to give a shit about them because muh identity politics.

Anyway good for you if you think there is no advantage or unfairness, I disagree so what.

In fact having mens and womens events is clearly gender discrimination. Let's have true equality and just have no genders specific categories at all for anything, that's true equality , pounds to peanuts no feminist wants to actually lose their distinct female privilege and just have pure competition.

Added: my god I just opened that horrible article, it downloaded to my computer, will reformat my entire hard drive to get it off.

What a truly piece of shit article, I am dumber for reading the bit I did, I bet you never got past the title.

And you claim you know something because you googled that trash pseudoscience.

Sushisnake 's picture
@TerminalDog

@TerminalDog

Re: "What a truly piece of shit article, I am dumber for reading the bit I did, I bet you never got past the title."

No, I read the abstract and the conclusion. Here's where I got the link from:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/do-transgender-athletes-h...

Strange. I had no idea the Washington Post promoted...what was it again? " trash pseudoscience" Must be because they don't:

Factual Reporting: HIGH

Notes: The Washington Post is an American daily newspaper. It is the most widely circulated newspaper published in Washington, D.C., and was founded on December 6, 1877. The newspaper has won 47 Pulitzer Prizes. This includes six separate Pulitzers awarded in 2008, the second-highest number ever awarded to a single newspaper in one year. Post journalists have also received 18 Nieman Fellowships and 368 White House News Photographers Association awards. The Washington Post has a liberal bias in reporting choices, however they are typically well sourced to credible information. Sometimes they rush stories to be the first to break them, which leads to poor sourcing. This has occurred on a few occasions in 2016. When an error is made the Washington Post responsibly makes corrections. (5/18/2016) Updated (1/12/2017)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/

But who cares what the Washington Post and science have to say? TermDog knows better because opinion.

Terminal Dogma's picture
I will say this for your

I will say this for your benefit, that's a junk science article in the LIFESTYLE section of the WOPO. It is not a scientific article, it is posing as one. It is not published in the scientific literature. Just read it and try determine for yourself why it is junk science, honest suggestion.

Sushisnake 's picture
@TermDog

@TermDog

Re: " . It is not published in the scientific literature..."

*sigh* I gave you the link to the scientific paper. Here it is on Researchgate:

 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307766116_Race_Times_for_Transg...

 ResearchGate provides a professional network for the scientific community to connect with each other to share and discuss research.
ResearchGate | Crunchbase https://www.crunchbase.com › researchgate

And I'm done. Conversations with transphobes are a waste of time and effort.

transphobia
tranzˈfəʊbɪə,transˈfəʊbɪə/
noun
1. dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.
"more than 120 complaints concerning transphobia in the media were made"

‘...so brave, you go girl all 100+ kg 6ft +. Hope zhe doesn't kill some other girl’

‘I think zhe has an awesome jawline most guys would envy.’

’...this "women"’

‘The Idiot’

‘no actual female’

‘it tried...’

‘non artificially enhanced women’

*SMH*

I'll give someone else the last word on transphobia:

https://youtu.be/Ov-ocQpQtrw

arakish's picture
Good going Sushi. I love

Good going Sushi. I love Trae Crowder, the Liberal Redneck. What a butthead (meant in a nice way like me...) I am subscribed to him. He can be quite hilarious.

rmfr

Terminal Dogma's picture
Typical leftist virtue

Researchgate lol, the absolute bottom feeder level academic pretenders, do you even science.

"

ResearchGate are renowned as the ultimate academic spam email machine, often sending unsolicited invitations to be co-author on articles you had nothing to do with, or vague comments about how a grad student from Estonia accidentally downloaded one of your datasets. More recently, emails have even got more ‘clickbaity’, not actually revealing anything useful unless you click through to the site, and much of the time still nothing informative awaits.

ResearchGate even has its own score, the originally named ‘ResearchGate score’, which is perceived by some as a measure of scientific reputation. A study (also available on ResearchGate if you want a tinge of irony) in 2015 found that the score is essentially non-transparent and non-reproducible, fulfilling two of the criteria for academic nonsense, and even incorporates everyone’s favourite metric, the Journal Impact Factor (another proprietary metric), into its calculation. Creating one flawed metric using another flawed one seems like a grand way to go about researcher assessment, doesn’t it. It’s not entirely clear what the score is there for, who uses it, or how it’s used, but there are better ways of doing it than leaving research assessment to a for-profit company, and their proprietary and generally weird metrics."

etc

Flamenca's picture
@TD: Let's have true equality

@TD: Let's have true equality and just have no genders specific categories at all for anything, that's true equality , pounds to peanuts no feminist wants to actually lose their distinct female privilege and have pure competition.

Hey, @Terminal, let's eliminate Paralympics too; let's those priviledged motherf*** know what pure competition is. You mistake egalitarism with equality, and you really sound like a transphobe, dude.

And you also forgot to link those scientifical sources you claim they back up your opinion...

Terminal Dogma's picture
Your retort would only work

Your retort would only work if you equate being a female with having a disability. Not something I would agree with.

Also are you saying that discrimination based on gender in sports ie male and female seperate events is justified or not in the context of gender equality, I don't get your position?

Also what did I write specifically that is transphobic?

It appears that some here are all muddled up in the brain trying to hold a consistent position on gender equality ...maintaining separate events based on gender unless you identify as Trans etc...what a logical mess.

This sort of thing is why i ditched the left, because the modern left have no workable consistent approach to living, it just about tearing shit up.

Flamenca's picture
@TD:

@TD:

- Disavantage is not the same as dissability. And yes, the separation is made on terms of equality.

- @Sushi already made you a good list of your transphobe remarks.

- I may have to insist on providing your sources if you want us to take you seriously about your assertions that trangenders have some type of advantages that disqualify them to be in the right category of the competition.

- For this time, I will ignore the ad hominems.

Terminal Dogma's picture
This is the horror a natura

This is the horror a natura lady found herself in fighting a male to female trans, dangerous, unfair advantage imo;

"
, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch…"

aperez241's picture
@Terminal Dogma

@Terminal Dogma

If she had found herself fighting a female to male trans, it would have been probably much worse. A trans like Laith Ashley, the one in the photo.

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Flamenca's picture
Oh, an individual opinion of

Oh, an individual opinion of who? when? about what? in which context? is the proof I needed to change my mind...

How could I be so blind and stupid?

Terminal Dogma's picture
An individual opinion by a

An individual opinion by a pro fighter female that fought a Trans, about fighting in the context of unfair competition in an extremely dangerous Pro Sport.

I guess the people it actually effects is not important to you who have no stake in it other than ideology.

Aposteriori Unum's picture
Terminal Dogma,

Terminal Dogma,
What exactly is your position?
For or against gender equality?
For or against sexuality equality?

Terminal Dogma's picture
My position is a fair set of

My position is a fair set of social and legal laws for all regardless of gender or sex ie merit based system with caveats eg for disabled people who imo should have access to jobs with laws that enable them to participate.

Flamenca's picture
If individual opinions would

If individual opinions counted as evidence to me, I guess I would still be a believer. And yes, I don't care what a singular person thinks about trasgenders, either a competitor or yourself, that's why I ask for scientifical links of your assertions.

CyberLN's picture
It would be interesting to

It would be interesting to know what competitors would say about a competition if they did not know their opponent was trans.

Jared Alesi's picture
Good ol' expectation bias.

Good ol' expectation bias. Works for transphobes and hypochondriacs alike. Ain't it something.

Stone Jade's picture
@Cog

@Terminal

She's a woman in a sport that is divided in to men & women. That's fair. Women's bodies come in many different shapes and sizes. If there is concern about her size or muscle mass, perhaps we should draw league lines by those criteria instead of gender.

Also, not all trans women are taller/stronger/more talented/etc than the cis women they compete against. Do you propose that we only ban the trans women that out-compete cis women? Or should even the 5'3" trans woman be banned from competition? Should cis women with naturally high levels of testosterone be disqualified?

Terminal Dogma's picture
@stone, great questions that

@stone, great questions that ioc etc are struggling with.

Sushisnake 's picture
@Stone Jade

@Stone Jade
Re: "Should cis women with naturally high levels of testosterone be disqualified?"

Great question, SJ. I've been wondering about that since I learned T levels are tested. Hyperandrogenic and intersex female athletes have both fallen foul of the testing. Where is sport going to draw the line? Is it going to test all women? And what about the men? There is no upper limit to the levels of natural testosterone allowed in their bodies.

I found a 2016 article by Jaime Schultz* in The Conversation asking these questions. Here's an excerpt:

"So does excess testosterone actually confer a competitive advantage?

My question is if it does, so what?

Elite sport is built on the back of inequality. We love the myth of a level playing field, but it doesn’t exist. Of the 207 nations competing in Rio, 75 have never won a medal. Wealthy, powerful countries dominate the Olympic Games, while conflicted, war-torn, impoverished countries simply lack the resources to promote sport to the level that will produce Olympic champions. That’s a clear disparity that raises little outcry.

But what we’re talking about in the case of hyperandrogenism is an innate condition that potentially enhances athletic performance. And, as scientists are just beginning to understand, elite sport is riddled with similar endowments."

 http://theconversation.com/so-what-if-some-female-olympians-have-high-te...

Incidentally, @TermDog, Hannah Mouncey's T levels are well below the IOC's limits, which you'd have known if you looked anywhere other than the Murdoch press:

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/afl-playing-gatekeeper-on-what-it-is-to-b...

And she's not the only very tall player, either. Do you think we should kick Erin McKinnon out of the AFLW?

http://womens.afl/inspire/erin-mckinnon

How about Collingwood's Emma King? She's 6'1". Erin McKinnon says she makes her feel like a scrawny teenager.
Neither Emma or Erin are ladies you'd want your frail little girlfriend playing against, I'm sure, so perhaps it's best she stays out of pro-level sport.

* Jaime Schultz is Associate Professor of Kinesiology at Penn State, with an affiliate appointment in Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies. An award-winning teacher and Fulbright scholar, Schultz is the author or editor of five books and fifty article or book chapters. She also serves as the academic editor of the International Journal of the History of Sport (Americas) and as co-editor for the University of Illinois Sport and Society series.

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