A benevolent, loving god?... Hmph!

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Sapporo's picture
The Christian and the Muslim

The Christian and the Muslim gods torture each others followers for not abiding by inconsequential differences of opinion. No good can come from that.

Sheldon's picture
"At the end God weighs

"At the end God weighs everything and then has an outcome. "

Call me pedantic, but wouldn't we need the end to occur before you could assert this banal vapid platitude with any validity, Billy? You spew claims, like a dog relentlessly licking it's balls, and it has all the same charm and erudition of that act as well.

Sheldon's picture
"God created evil (in this

"God created evil (in this case the disease)… without it ‘good’ would be meaningless. "

Nonsense, does someone have to choke to death on the buffet before you can start to enjoy a party? What a truly absurd rationalisation this is, even by the standards religious apologetics set.

Tin-Man's picture
A father using an extension

A father using an extension cord to beat the shit out of his eight year old little boy, "Please understand, son, I am doing this only because I love and care for you so much." *whack! whack! whack!"

Little boy screaming and crying in agony and confusion, "Daddy! Daddy! You are hurting me! What did I do wrong?"

Father still beating the boy, "Oh, my wonderful child, you have done absolutely nothing wrong." *whack! whack! whack!* "You are one of the most obedient and well-mannered children a father could ever want." *whack! whack! whack!*

Little boy crying louder, "Then why are you punishing me, Daddy?"

Father still hitting the boy, "What? Punishing? Oh, I'm not punishing you, my darling child. I am only showing you how much I love you by making you suffer. That way you can better appreciate all the good things I do for you in your life. After all, if I don't cause you pain every now and then, how will you ever know how good you really have it?" *whack! whack! whack!...*

Yep, that makes absolutely perfect sense.

Sheldon's picture
Christ almighty, of all the

Christ almighty, of all the pain and suffering a sentient designer would have to allow, if not have specifically designed and created, can anything compare to the emotional trauma of a parent whose child has been needlessly killed or died from illness or disease.

A cousin of my fathers was 7 years old, he was I have been told one of those children who is so generous and good nature'd you could not fail to like him, and his mother worshipped him, her marriage was not an easy and probably not a happy one as her husband was not a very pleasant man, so the son had become her whole world. When he was seven he fell in the school play ground and broke his arm, the arm took a long time to heal, and concerned the doctors sent him for tests which revealed a tumour. This was many years ago, no chemo was available then, and the only option was to amputate his right arm above the elbow, which they assured his mother would save his life. The boy was an active child like most children of that age, and when he was told my father said he went quiet and wouldn't talk to anyone, his mother was in hell, quite literally. The operation went ahead as his mother had no choice but to agree to it, and after the operation she had to watch him struggle to come to terms with losing his right arm. The arm was still painful and more test revealed the cancer had in fact metastasised. He lasted another 18 months and then succumbed. His mother meanwhile had to endure the knowledge she had agreed to to the amputation needlessly, and watched him suffer that on top pf everything else. During an era when pain and suffering and mortality even amongst children was all too common, the memory of his death, the funeral, and his tiny coffin and his mother trying to cope with a loss that was overwhelming, it made an impression that my father said he would never be able to forget and he was only a teenager himself. One can only imagine, and I try not to, the pain his mother suffered at the loss of her only child, she died young herself having never really recovered from the loss.

Now I would have to believe that this scene had played out countless times over the entirety of human existence some 150 to 200 thousand years, with countless suffering parents begging heaven for help, and that a deity which could have stopped it did NOTHING. If there is a difference then between my secular subjective morality and such a deity, it is that if I could stop a child dying needlessly, or being raped, I would, but this deity hatches it's plans in indifferent reticence, or at least revealing itself to only a select few if they are to be believed.

I shan't labour the point, as it's clear such a deity would be a monster that defined the word evil. However it goes without saying that if it's existence were proved to me unequivocally right now, I'd want absolutely nothing to do with it.

Luckily and as I have said before, there is no objective evidence for such a deity, and for that I can only be thankful. Why anyone would want such a monster to be real is beyond me.

Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon Re: "I shan't

@Sheldon Re: "I shan't labour the point, as it's clear such a deity would be a monster that defined the word evil. However it goes without saying that if it's existence were proved to me unequivocally right now, I'd want absolutely nothing to do with it.
Luckily and as I have said before, there is no objective evidence for such a deity, and for that I can only be thankful. Why anyone would want such a monster to be real is beyond me."

Thank you for sharing that, Sheldon. And you really nailed it at the end.

faith in God follower's picture
Don`t call A LOVING GOD a

Don`t call A LOVING GOD a monster please; Your story is not special here, alot of people suffer no one is immune here. God makes everything come out according to his plan .Romans chapter 8 verse 28.It isn`t indifferent reticence here God was and is suffering along with the people you listed. Anyway what is so wrong in dying anyway? we all have too. if GOD takes me home I`m more the thankful. You see according to the Christian view point Death isn`t the end So cheer up there is a GOD and he loves you too s.

Sheldon's picture
Cry me a river, if such a

Cry me a river, if such a deity existed it would be barbarically cruel monster, that's axiomatic. I never said my story was special, you simply are incapable of rational discussion.

"God makes everything come out according to his plan ."

No he doesn't Hitchens's razor. If he did though he'd be a sadistic fucking monster.

"You see according to the Christian view point Death isn`t the end"

Just one problem, it's wishful thinking that a child should be embarrassed to entertain.

"So cheer up there is a GOD and he loves you too s."

I couldn't be happier if I was twins as it happens, but no this claim is demonstrably untrue- Hitchens's razor applied.

I'm afraid these arguments are totally over your head. Google theodicy, and learn what it means and why theologians have grappled with it since they first invented fictional deities.

Epicurus summed up theodicy neatly here, and he died 270 years before Jesus is alleged to have existed.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Nyarlathotep's picture
faith in God - So cheer up

faith in God - So cheer up there is a GOD and he loves you too

faith in God - I`ll wash your mouth out with soap if you were my relative!

Probably shouldn't make an obfuscated threat of assault and battery if you are trying to persuade people with 'love'.

Sheldon's picture
Ah but this the theists tough

Ah but this is the theists tough love, creepy as hell isn't it? God loves you, but.......

Qu@si's picture
but still he'll burn you to

but still he'll burn you to hell and torture you forever, but.....he loves you.. don't worry..

that's why he's going to punish you....hahahahah..HAHAHAH..(evil laugh)

Tin-Man's picture
Hey, Sheldon! Don't forget

Hey, Sheldon! Don't forget about "free will", also. Goes something like this....

"Hey, kids! Let's all go get some ice cream! And you can pick out ANY FLAVOR you want! However, if you don't pick vanilla, I will cave your head in with a baseball bat. But feel free to choose whatever your favorite flavor is. Your choice entirely."

Tin-Man's picture
@Nyar Re: Remark to FIG of

@Nyar Re: Remark to FIG of "Probably shouldn't make an obfuscated threat of assault and battery if you are trying to persuade people with 'love'."

No problems there. Fortunately, I view the little twerp to be about as much of a threat as a box of new-born kittens. Pretty sure Myk would agree, too. LOL

Tin-Man's picture
@FIG Re: "Don`t call A

@FIG Re: "Don`t call A LOVING GOD a monster please;"

Uh, he wasn't calling a LOVING GOD a monster. He was calling YOUR god a monster. Pay attention, will ya?

Sapporo's picture
There is no greater evil than

There is no greater evil than eternal torture. That is the very antithesis of love.

Qu@si's picture
"rational argument doesn't

"rational argument doesn't work with religious people, otherwise there won't be any religious people..."

mykcob4's picture
FIG I mean Billy thinks that

FIG I mean Billy thinks that he could wash my mouth out with soap. What an internet tough guy. I would LOVE to see him try.
I can say FUCK god, FUCK jesus all I want on this forum. I may just start a thread of nothing but FUCK god and FUCK jesus posts.
Oh, and BTW...FUCK god and FUCK jesus. That is so cathartic and so much fun.

"Hey god!" "Yes?" "FUCK YOU!"
"Hey jesus!" "Yes?" Fuck you, you little punk!"
Hmmm...Let's just see what god or jesus will do about it, shall we? Oh, I know, they'll send some punk hiding behind the internet to act tough and threaten me! What a fucking joke!
I guarantee you, Billy, if you tried to wash my mouth out with soap, you'd end up with that bar stuck in your ass! Then I'd take it out and stick it in YOUR mouth!
"Bubbles, He's forever blowing bubbles."

mykcob4's picture
I bought a new bible today

I bought a new bible today because I ran out of toilet paper!

Tin-Man's picture
@Myk Re: "I bought a new

@Myk Re: "I bought a new bible today because I ran out of toilet paper!"

Which type? The one I have, the pages are so thin and slick the shit doesn't stick very well when I wipe.

Diotrephes's picture
Tin-man,

Tin-man,

That's too much information!

Nyarlathotep's picture
ROYISM - Okay, so you are

ROYISM - Okay, so you are saying that the prophet (PBUH) was a pedophile because he married a 9 year old. You seem to be totally out of synch with marriage standards in the past. If you are going to apply this standard, you would have to call every single person from the past a pedophile.

Notice the position this theist is arguing is moral relativism. And that is great, I couldn't agree more. But there is a problem: this same theist has posted pages of arguments in support of objective morality.

ROYISM 's picture
Nyarl: Notice the position

Nyarl: Notice the position this theist is arguing is moral relativism. And that is great, I couldn't agree more. But there is a problem: this same theist has posted pages of arguments in support of objective morality”

I still stand by that. I am only pointing out the relativism that Old Man Shouts would be faced with, if he were to apply his standards. As far as I am concerned the appropriate age of marriage can be decided by the family of the concerned parties in conjunction with societal norms… the only bar is that the girl should not be pre-pubescent.

Sheldon's picture
" As far as I am concerned

" As far as I am concerned the appropriate age of marriage can be decided by the family of the concerned parties in conjunction with societal norms… the only bar is that the girl should not be pre-pubescent."

Then you have no morality, objective or otherwise. There are no circumstances or context where it is morally acceptable for a man in his 40's to marry and rape a 9 year old child, and just because societies which were once dominated by misogynistic old men who thought differently doesn't change that. It was immoral then and it's immoral now, our attitudes have changed because decent free societies have slowly abandoned religious dogma, and this has allowed our morals to improve. You by comparison appear to be stuck in the bronze age, trying to justify the rape of a nine year old girl.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: ".....a man in his 40's

Re: ".....a man in his 40's to marry and rape a 9 year old child..."

Ya know, I have arrested people for offenses far less heinous than that. Truth is, if I were ever to come upon an adult in the process of doing such a thing to a child, it would take a tremendous amount of will-power and self-control to stop myself from putting a bullet through his brain. Hmmmm.... Come to think of it, I may not even try that hard to convince myself not to. Oh, and anybody who condones or tries to justify a grown man conducting such activities with a child is not that much different than the perpetrator (in my opinion).

ROYISM 's picture
You said: “Then you have no

You said: “Then you have no morality, objective or otherwise. There are no circumstances or context where it is morally acceptable for a man in his 40's to marry and rape a 9 year old child,”

You characterization of an arranged marriage as rape does no add any value to your argument. You keep insisting that 9 year is no age for consent… but yourself don’t have any reliable standard to judge what that age should be. I remember you suggesting 16 as that age in one of our previous discussions… and I pointed out how you would be in jail in India if you put that into practice, because the age in India is 18. Would you concede that you are pedophile according to Indian standards?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Royism

@ Royism
According to the Indian standard Mohammed would be a sex offender as well.
I already gave you a lengthy answer to your question, also why it is more likely that the 'myth' of Aisha's consummation was just that, a ploy to make her virginity incontestable for the masses.

However your continued defence of a 54 year old man consummating marriage with his best friends nine year old daughter is repugnant. Mohammed didn't even have to consummate until Aisha was properly of age as a young woman.Plenty of precedent for that at the time. To do so isnt "social mores" or custom of the time it is simple lust for a child. That is what we are all saying.
People and their motivations have not changed all that much in a thousand years.

Sheldon's picture
"You characterization of an

"You characterization of an arranged marriage as rape does no add any value to your argument. "

Bullshit, and I'm not making an argument, as your vile claim that sex or marriage with a nIne year old child is morally acceptable needs no counter argument, it is demonstrably repugnant and immoral. I do hope you have no daughters is all I can say, I fear for them.

" but yourself don’t have any reliable standard to judge what that age should be."

Liar, I have repeatedly pointed out the reason is that exploiting and raping children is pernicious because they are not physically or emotionally equipped to give consent, so obviously the moral age is when they are emotionally equipped to give consent. Laws just provide a minimum age, but there are still sound moral reasons a 40+ year old man should not be trying to marry or have sex with someone in their teens.

" I remember you suggesting 16 as that age in one of our previous discussions…"

Another lie, I pointed out it was 16 in the UK, and never suggested this was an absolute yardstick, stop lying please.

" and I pointed out how you would be in jail in India if you put that into practice, because the age in India is 18. Would you concede that you are pedophile according to Indian standards?"

Do fuck off, have I slept with anyone in India under 18, or ever advocated anyone else do so you lying scumbag? You're the one claiming it's ok to marry and rape children AS YOUNG AS NINE, not me, and I have never suggested it is moral for anyone to break the law and sleep with someone under the age of consent IN ANY COUNTRY. I did say that the age of consent was 16 in the UK and that I have no moral misgivings with that as a legal MINIMUM.

It should be obvious to anyone with any intelligence that the age of consent is a legal benchmark not a moral one, it is possible to be immoral whilst not breaking the law, but only someone entirely devoid of morals would try and place the age of consent as NINE FUCKING YEARS OLD, that's vile and completely immoral.

ROYISM 's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

You said: “Bullshit, and I'm not making an argument, as your vile claim that sex or marriage with a nIne year old child is morally acceptable needs no counter argument, it is demonstrably repugnant and immoral.”

Repugnant and immoral according to what standard? And what according to you would be the appropriate age? And based on what do you arrive at that figure?

You said: “Liar, I have repeatedly pointed out the reason is that exploiting and raping children is pernicious because they are not physically or emotionally equipped to give consent,”

So then what according to you is the age when they would be physically and emotionally equipped to give consent?

You said: “Another lie, I pointed out it was 16 in the UK, and never suggested this was an absolute yardstick, stop lying please.”

Okay, so do you agree with the UK standard? Or do you have any other standard?

You said: “Do fuck off, have I slept with anyone in India under 18, or ever advocated anyone else do so you lying scumbag?”

NO use hyper ventilating! I am asking for you moral standard on which you decide the age of consent. India has a standard… is that morally acceptable to you, or do you go by the UK standard, or the US standard, where in some states its lower than 14? Which is your standard?

You said: “I have never suggested it is moral for anyone to break the law and sleep with someone under the age of consent IN ANY COUNTRY.”

I didn’t say you suggested that. But which of these standards do you think is morally okay?

You said: “I did say that the age of consent was 16 in the UK and that I have no moral misgivings with that as a legal MINIMUM.”

Does that mean you don’t agree with the US standard of 14? And based on what do you think that a 16 year old is emotionally fit for marriage? A 16 year old wouldn’t have even entered the university, or barely so… would you concede them the maturity to make such a crucial life decision?

You said: “It should be obvious to anyone with any intelligence that the age of consent is a legal benchmark not a moral one, it is possible to be immoral whilst not breaking the law, but only someone entirely devoid of morals would try and place the age of consent as NINE FUCKING YEARS OLD, that's vile and completely immoral.”

What a bundle of contradictions… you begin by saying that age of consent is not a moral benchmark, and then say that when it is 9 it is devoid of morals!!! What exactly is your position???? Is it moral or just legal or is it both depending on what suits you?

Sheldon's picture
That's just an endless repeat

That's just an endless repeat of the same question I gave an expansive responsive to in my last post? Try reading my response.

"What a bundle of contradictions… you begin by saying that age of consent is not a moral benchmark, and then say that when it is 9 it is devoid of morals!!! "

Is 9 the fucking legal age of consent? Are you really this illiterate? In the uk it's 16 and I have no problem with this as absolute LEGAL minimum age of consent, this does not negate a persons moral responsibility just because someone is above that age, any adult trying to or advocating sex with someone under that age is immoral, and anyone advocating sex with a nine year old child is entirely devoid of morals.

"What exactly is your position???? "

The same as the last time I explained it expansively in my last post.

"Is it moral or just legal or is it both depending on what suits you?"

Again explained in my last post, get a literate person to explain it to you as you're making an ass of yourself now.

However since you are determined to misrepresent what I have posted lets be perfectly clear, anyone advocating sex with a nine year old child is a vile immoral scumbag. As is anyone who rapes a nine year old child, and yes that would include Mohammed.

Sapporo's picture
Aisha still played with dolls

Aisha still played with dolls when Muhammad first raped her, therefore she was acknowledged as a child even according to Islam. It is strange that you think Muhammad should abide by societal norms rather than the word of god. Do you have any evidence that it was customary for Arabs to marry six year olds before the time of Muhammad?

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