A benevolent, loving god?... Hmph!

192 posts / 0 new

Sun, 02/11/2018 - 05:23

Sheldon

I wonder if ROYISM even understands what it is he is defending blindly? This is what religion does to your morality, they get hysterical over the termination of an insentient blastocyst, but raping a nine year old child is ok to them. The mind boggles.

Sun, 02/11/2018 - 05:20

(Reply to #182) #183

Sheldon

I'd address your defence of

I'd address your defence of paedophilia if I were you, since you're claim raping nine year children is morally ok? As this lie you keep repeating about me is just an attempt at deflection.

Wed, 02/14/2018 - 03:38

#184

Valiya

@Sheldon

You said: "No it's not, there are proper scientific studies that support this, unlike your religious claims.”
Based on the first video I watched, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence for a moral trait among animals… but yes as Sushisnake has suggested, I will watch the other ones too and give my final take.

You said: “Care to evidence that claim? I'm guessing not.
The burden of evidence is on you as well… so, if you are going to say that animals express traits such as empathy etc. by making a conscious choice, you will have to prove that.

You said: “I'm guessing he can read
Benevolence
noun
the quality of being well meaning; kindness.”

I think this is the second time you are bringing a dictionary meaning as evidence. That’s just worthless. Nobody is disputing the meaning of benevolence. The quality of ‘kindness’ will have no value unless there is ‘hate’… Therefore in the absence of evil, how can we ever have a moral benchmark to make moral decisions? That’s the moot question.

You said: “No just the concept will do, humans are capable of imagination so the idea I'd need to burn my hand before I could appreciate ice was cold is absurd.”

The thing to note here is that you can’t imagine axiomatic concepts… as in concepts that are not derived from other existing concepts. For example, I can imagine Superman (a flying man), who is basically a combination of two existing concepts, which are ‘flying’ and ‘man’. But, let’s say we are living in a universe without time, then there is no way we can imagine time. Because time is an axiomatic concept. Try imagining what it would be like outside time and space? In the context of our discussion, we are trying to imagine a universe without suffering (as in no pain, evil, hate etc)… if that were the condition, then we would have no way of imagining it up, much like time.

You don’t need to burn your hand, but you certainly must know the concept of heat

You said: “No, it is the concept of a perfectly merciful deity that is incompatible with suffering, I explained this to you before with a quote from Epicurus, but of course you ignored it.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
You have already proved my argument here. I am saying this discussion is about a hypothetical question that if God is, then how come there is suffering. Each of the question you have raised stems from that hypothetical assumption… “If god is…”

You said: “Nothing supernatural is needed for that, not any religion either, yours has you trying to justify a middle aged man raping a nine year old girl, so the standard you're claiming helps morality hasn't helped yours has it, if you can't see that as an evil and immoral act.”

I know you are claiming that you have answered my question regarding your standard for age of consent. But I don’t see where you have answered it. Can you please do me a kind favor of explaining clearly what according to you is the right age for consent and your logical reason for thinking so? It is only if you give me your standard that I can then use it to measure Mohammed’s (PBUH). Without that, no matter how much you cry ‘rape’ it will be to no avail. Emotionally appeals are next to useless here.

Wed, 02/14/2018 - 04:14

(Reply to #184) #185

Old man shouts ...

@ Royism

@ Royism
"Can you please do me a kind favor of explaining clearly what according to you is the right age for consent and your logical reason for thinking so? It is only if you give me your standard that I can then use it to measure Mohammed’s (PBUH)"

Your repeated assumptions that my or any other persons' designation of a preferred age of consent is A STRAW MAN FALLACY.

No, no no. You have maintained the concept that is right, justifiable and moral for a 52-54 year old man to rape and molest a nine year old child. You have defended the act of pedophilic rape on several grounds without answering the basic question:
"Given the choice is it moral at any time in human recorded history for a 52-54 year old man to rape( have sex) with a 9 year old child under any circumstances?"
If you think so, some other examples would be great as precedents.
In the 8th century Mohammed could have quite easily just stayed betrothed to Aisha, it would in no way have affected his political alliance with his friend and her father. The "consummation' i.e rape was a conscious choice of a mature man over a child.

Please stick to the facts. Aisha ( if we believe her accounts) was playing with her friends and their dolls when Mohammed 'visited' her rooms. She made her friends hide while Mohammed had sex with her. Is that the act of a normal 50 odd year old male with several immature and mature wives to choose from?
How would you describe that?

Royism, try and stop the straw man and non sequiturs. Simple question that goes to the heart of your argument. When in human history has the rape of a powerless 9 year old been moral?

Examples please.

Wed, 02/14/2018 - 05:36

(Reply to #185) #186

Valiya

@ Old Man Shouts

You said: "No, no no. You have maintained the concept that is right, justifiable and moral for a 52-54 year old man to rape and molest a nine year old child.”

The whole reason why I am trying hard from you and others in this thread for a standard by which you can decide the right age of consent is to use it to measure Mohammed’s (PUBH) morality. Unless I have that, no matter how much you cry ‘rape’…. it will just be some emotional bickering with no value in this discussion.

You said: "Given the choice is it moral at any time in human recorded history for a 52-54 year old man to rape( have sex) with a 9 year old child under any circumstances?"

This is such a loaded question, that’s why I can’t give a yes or no answer to it. Let me explain it. For you to term something as rape you will have to firstly establish the age of consent, which I am yet to hear from you guys. Now, do you see why I am keen to know what your standard is? If the union can’t be shown to be outside of consent, then it’s not rape anymore. If it is not rape and it’s through mutual consent, then why should we have a problem with it?

You said: “Please stick to the facts. Aisha ( if we believe her accounts) was playing with her friends and their dolls when Mohammed 'visited' her rooms.”

Agreed.
You said: “She made her friends hide while Mohammed had sex with her.”
Strongly disagree. Please produce your proof.

You said: “Simple question that goes to the heart of your argument. When in human history has the rape of a powerless 9 year old been moral?”

How old should a girl be before she would be deemed (according to your standard) as empowered? If you can explain that to me, then I will have some basis to measure how short Aisha falls and decide how immoral it is.

Here are some young brides in history. I don’t if these ages would fall short of your standard or not, as I don’t know your standard.

Edward II married French princess, Isabella when she was 12.
John married Isabella of Angoulême when she was 13 and he was 33.
Henry III married Eleanor of Provence when she was 13 and he was 29.
King Stephen’s wife, Matilda, was 14 when she got married.

Wed, 02/14/2018 - 15:37

(Reply to #186) #187

Old man shouts ...

@ Royism

"Strongly disagree. Please produce your proof."

'A'isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

"Edward II married French princess, Isabella when she was 12.
John married Isabella of Angoulême when she was 13 and he was 33.
Henry III married Eleanor of Provence when she was 13 and he was 29.
King Stephen’s wife, Matilda, was 14 when she got married"

None of them was nine years old, none of the suitors you mention were in their 50's, corpulent, with shaved pubes. You missed many examples where some children were betrothed as babies in Western kingdoms, but in each case consummation was either never accomplished, accomplished with a different, younger partner, or accomplished in their mid teens.

Now, as I have said, your comment " I don’t if these ages would fall short of your standard or not, as I don’t know your standard." is a straw man argument. My views on the modern age of consent are irrelevant to the question as to whether a child of nine can give informed consent.

The answer is she cannot. As it cannot be informed consent (there are numerous studies on development of the brain in children and even more numerous psychological papers confirming this) then the act of penetration by an older man or woman is rape.
I am sure even 6IX Breezy will confirm this.

Again I say, Mohammed ( the "perfect ' man) could quite easily have delayed consummation until Aisha was of age to understand what she was being asked. Plainly she was not, nor was her consent explicitly given.( let's not repeat the "silence is consent' rubbish again) He could have set the example for the rest of the muslim world about restraint, kindness and not taking advantage of the young for selfish gratification.

He did not, further, he deliberately chose not to in order to satisfy his lust for a child.

So his act of consummation, subsequent acts of public fondling and bathing with a nine year old have a very different interpretation.

Here are some of the results of the "perfect" man's example.

"In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents' permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137

In the Ivory Coast this book also tells of a 12 year old girl who would leave the house for hours before returning home. After her father tied her up, burned her back with a piece of iron, locked her up for three days with no food, he eventually married her of to a 40-year old man. He never sent her to school because he said that it would drive them from their tradition, they would start asking questions, and not want to marry until they are 19 or 20.

The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)

The Dallas Morning News Sep 28, 2003 p.1,10S had a story about the sad plight of Muslim Nigerian girls who were married very young, got pregnant and had labor before their small bodies were ready. It was actually somewhat of a gross story, basically of many girls who needed C-sections but did not get them. Many survived, but could not have any children due to their perforated uteruses.

To understand the authoritative nature of the example of Mohammed, we have to understand something of the Muslim hadiths. They hold a higher place in Sunni Islam than church tradition does in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Sunni Muslims hold to six collections of hadiths as the most authoritative writings in Islam after the Qur'an."

courtesy https://www.muslimhope.com

Thu, 02/15/2018 - 01:49

(Reply to #187) #188

Valiya

@ Royism

You said: “'A'isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.”

You said Mohammed (PBUH) had sex with Aisha when her friends would go hiding. Where is the proof for that? Here, on the contrary, he is seen inviting them to play with her.

You said: “None of them was nine years old, none of the suitors you mention were in their 50's, corpulent, with shaved pubes.”

Oh… so 12 year olds marrying 30+ year olds is fine with you? Is that your standard? I was giving examples that militate against our modern ideas of appropriate age of marriage. And there are plenty of such examples in the past. This was my purpose behind the examples.

You said: “My views on the modern age of consent are irrelevant to the question as to whether a child of nine can give informed consent.”

It is relevant… because I need to know if not 9 then what age is appropriate? If you can’t tell me that appropriate age, then why should I entertain your criticism of 9?

You said: “The answer is she cannot. As it cannot be informed consent (there are numerous studies on development of the brain in children and even more numerous psychological papers confirming this) then the act of penetration by an older man or woman is rape.”

Do any of those studies give an ideal age for consent?

You said: “Again I say, Mohammed ( the "perfect ' man) could quite easily have delayed consummation until Aisha was of age to understand what she was being asked.”

And how much is that ‘age to understand’? This is what I want from you.

You said: “He could have set the example for the rest of the muslim world about restraint, kindness and not taking advantage of the young for selfish gratification.”

Yes he could have… but seems like he didn’t have a clue about how long he should have waited before relaxing the restraint. But you, who is so vehemently decrying that union, sure must be wise enough to know what that benchmark age should be, right? So, please do us the honors.

You said: “"In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents' permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137”

That’s so cruel, isn’t it? But then would you have been okay if the age was 12? Not good, then how about 13? Still bad, probably 14? I am waiting to know.

You said: “In the Ivory Coast this book also tells of a 12 year old girl who would leave the house for hours before returning home. After her father tied her up, burned her back with a piece of iron, locked her up for three days with no food, he eventually married her of to a 40-year old man. He never sent her to school because he said that it would drive them from their tradition, they would start asking questions, and not want to marry until they are 19 or 20.”

So, what has that got to do with Islam? It’

You said: “The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)”

You can’t hold the prophet responsible for what people do in Islam’s name. The prophet never set any limit on the age of marriage… and if the Taliban wanted to apply a blanket ruling like this, it has nothing to do with Islam, rather it is in clear contravention of Islamic principles.

Thu, 02/15/2018 - 15:11

(Reply to #188) #189

Old man shouts ...

@ Royism

You keep repeating the same old same old.

"when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allahs Messenger" Translated also as, they left the house because they didn't want to be around Mohammed when he came for sex.

The rest of your points all relate to what I think is a good age for consent? I have already replied that sex between a nine year and and 54 year old is anathema. For that kind of age gap I would say the woman would have to be 25( i.e a mental adult) plus for the relationship to be meaningful and devoid of power imbalance.
Why don't you ask any number of 10 year olds to 15 year olds if the idea of sex with a corpulent scented fat man with bad teeth and an oiled beard is appealing?

I have started a new thread about ages of consent there are some good posts there, please trot along and post how you think the age of consent between a child and an old man should be reduced to nine years old. It should make for fascinating reading.

Your position is indefensible and the last part of your message?

"You can’t hold the prophet responsible for what people do in Islam’s name"
I am not going to even bother to reply. The prophet is Islam, his example is law, his words are law.

I gave you clear examples of how the prophets actions influence today's islam. He could have avoided all that but for his lust for a child.

Please go to any town or city in Saudi Arabia or Northern Pakistan and repeat your statement in a very loud voice. Love to witness that outcome.

Wed, 02/14/2018 - 04:25

(Reply to #189) #190

Sushisnake

@Royism

"If you are going to say that animals express traits such as empathy etc. by making a conscious choice, you will have to prove that."

Academic papers:

Animal Play and the Evolution of Morality: An Ethological Approach

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11245-005-5050-8

Moral Agency in Other Animals

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11017-006-9010-0

A Defense of Animal Moral Cognition - Carroll Collected - John Carroll University

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://collecte...

Animal Pleasure and its Moral Significance - Semantic Scholar

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.sem...

Moral Emotions in Nonhuman Animals - Scholarly Repository - University of Miami

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarl...

Marc Bekoff & Jessica Pierce, Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals - PhilPapers

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://philpape...

Beastly Morality - Animals as Ethical Agents | Columbia University Press

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cup.colu...

An Evolutionary Perspective on Morality - ScholarWorks @ Georgia State University

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://scholarw...

Books:

'Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals' Marc Bekoff & Jessica Pierce

'The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates' Frans de Waal

' The Moral Lives of Animals' Dale Peterson

Fri, 02/16/2018 - 13:21

#191

NewSkeptic

My snipe from the outside.

This reminds me of the abortion debate. Is it okay for someone to take the next day pill. Most people, absolute religious zealots aside, would say yes. Is it okay to insert a needle into the brain of a nine-month old fetus to kill it in vitro? Only the radical left abortionists would say yes. The correct answer is somewhere in between, but it sure as hell (metaphorically) is not at either poll.

Is it okay for a middle aged man (who likely bathed once a month whether he needed to or not) to rape, sorry make love to, a nine-year old? Only a Muslim defending it's pedophile prophet (BPUH) would say yes. What's the correct age of consent? I don't know. If I throw a number out there, you're going to try to change the debate to make me defend it. IT'S HIGHER THAN 9 as many have elaborated. There is no doubt about that. The false argument of "understanding the era" also holds no sway just like how some would defend slavery. Take a different tack. Assume someone said the age of consent is 16 and gave you a compelling argument. Now, defend your prophet.

You won't/can't. Your entire philosophy rests on the morality of this heinous act. Conceding would tumble your religion like a house of cards. Even you understand that.

Fri, 02/16/2018 - 20:47

(Reply to #191) #192

Tin-Man

@NewSkeptic Re: "My snipe

@NewSkeptic Re: "My snipe from the outside."

How's it going, New? Thanks for your input. Having been on this site for awhile now, it has been a rather unexpected eye-opener to see what extent some of these theists will go to (even to the point of sacrificing their own humanity and personal integrity) in order to desperately defend a belief system that condones such blatant and disgusting atrocities. And this is coming from a guy who has seen quite a bit of fucked up shit over the years.

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