Faith in God is more certain than reason.

42 posts / 0 new

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 09:54

AJ777

General revelation, special revelation, personal experience, the cosmological argument, the moral argument, the ontological argument, Thomas Aquinas 5 ways.....

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 10:10

(Reply to #32) #33

mykcob4

@AJ777

@AJ777
1) Cosmology argument-you are seeing what isn't there. Also, "observation" is only one small part of investigation.
2) Morality- comes from society, not a god.
3) Ontological argument- There are so many things wrong with this "idea" I can't begin to cover it. "A thing cannot be greater than it is" is suppose to prove that there is a god? Bullshit!
I don't know what you mean by "general revelation, or special revelation, they sound dubious at best. personal experience is convenient because it cannot be proven. So I can dismiss all 3 as insufficient and not good evidence.
As far as Thomas Aquinas 5 ways... we have already been over each one several times on this forum. NONE of them prove a god, and each argument is predicated on a false premise.

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 13:09

(Reply to #33) #34

Sheldon

You keep posting those

You keep posting those arguments but have ignored the refutations of them. That's dishonest. They are logically fallacious, do you understand that logically fallacious claims cannot be demonstrated to be true? Revelation can't be demonstrated, it's only revelation for the person who experiences it, so is not evidence that can be demonstrated to others. Your arguments for religious moral ascendancy is simply asserted you have failed offer any compelling argument for this assertion, what;s more I have asked you repeatedly how you know what is and is not moral, and you have evaded the question, the cynic in me is starting to think you have spotted the flaw in your claim and are dishonestly avoiding answering as you have spotted the self made trap your reasoning is heading for.

As for Aquinas's 5 ways, here's a pretty good summation of why they're fallacious.

http://www.vorpal.us/2007/10/the-five-ways-of-st-thomas-aquinas-are-all-...

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 13:18

(Reply to #34) #35

AJ777

I don’t agree Sheldon. Just

I don’t agree Sheldon. Just because there are arguments against a proof that does not make those arguments correct. You have not refuted the arguments sir. Special revelation which is the Bible can be demonstrated to exist. General revelation which is the universe and everything in it does exist.

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 13:33

(Reply to #35) #36

Sheldon

since you dismissed my

Since you dismissed my refutations with a petty insult I'm not convinced you even understand the arguments you quoted, and you claimed the cosmological argument was an argument for the existence of a deity, but anyone who understands it knows it's not, it is an argument for a first cause, and is deeply flawed as I explained.

Perhaps you can tell me why you disagree with my refutation of it? Then I might believe you actually want to discuss the topic with an open mind, and not with your blind faith glasses on. As I explained revelation is not evidence you can demonstrate to anyone else, so claiming it is no more than your opinion, and what is more many other theists make the same claim for deities you don't believe in, so selection bias to boot. If I claimed revelation of Zeus are you going to believe in him? I'm guessing not...now why would that be I wonder, you just claimed revelation was evidence after all, so that means there is evidence for anything anyone claims personal experience of...mermaids, unicorns, alien mother ships et al...

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 19:24

(Reply to #36) #37

Burn Your Bible

Your special revelation is

Your special revelation is that the Bible exists??!!!???

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 15:30

(Reply to #37) #38

algebe

@AJ777 "General revelation,

@AJ777 "General revelation, special revelation...."

Why is that all of these methods were developed only in societies that were already Christianized at the time, and only in places accessible on foot/horse from the Middle East? The people of Japan, for example, didn't hear about Jesus until the arrival of Francis Xavier in the 16th century. So about 15 generations of Japanese were born and died without hearing the gospels.

Why did god rely on primitive modes of transportation and communication to spread the message? And why did he entrust this message to rapacious, syphilitic monsters like the Conquistadors?

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 13:01

#39

Sheldon

"Faith should be considered

"Faith should be considered more certain because mans reasoning could be flawed,"

Firstly what on earth has happened to the possessive apostrophe? Secondly what a spectacularly asinine claim. So faith in Zeus is superior to human reasoning? Or is your absurd fallacy using a dollop of selection bias as well?

"Faith can be described as belief in
something being true,"

Redefining the dictionary now are we?

Faith (religious)
noun
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

So is Zeus real then if someone has faith in him? How can you deny such faith if your reason is flawed and faith so superior?

Dear oh dear...

" I can have evidence of my wife’s
love for me"

Er no you can't, your reasoning is flawed remember, just take it on faith. Personally I believe my wife loves me because all the evidence confirms this, and whilst people can be deceived life would be unbearable without trust, faith is unnecessary, and of course we know because we have ample evidence that people do love one another and are often trustworthy. We have no such evidence for anything supernatural, and you have yet to post any. Just these absurd assertions and logical fallacies.

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 13:27

#40

Aposteriori unum

@AJ777: You've been given

@AJ777: You've been given definitions three times or more now. Mykcob4, Sheldon and myself have all posted verbatim the definitions of faith et cetera. So it seems we can begin your journey to enlightenment with a dictionary.

Next, you can go to omicsonline.org and you'll have access to hundreds of scientific journals and thousands of peer reviewed articles by thousands of scientists who have done their research and experiments. Most, if not all, of your questions could be answered there.

Your perimeter of ignorance can only grow from there. (Inquire for explanation of the term if you don't know.)

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 15:41

(Reply to #40) #41

Burn Your Bible

Thank you I didn't know about

Thank you I didn't know about that website...

Tue, 10/17/2017 - 16:56

#42

Pitar

Faith - A strong belief in

Faith - A strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

To say that faith is a more reasonable certainty than man's evidence as reason for denying it is simply the way of faith-based systems. It's the mantra of all apologists.

Said another way, if the facts don't support the theory the humanist tosses out the theory. If the facts don't support the deity the apologist tosses out the facts.

I see the thread starter as a confession more than anything else it might have been intended to convey.

I accept your confession. Say 32.675 Hail Mary's and think about not coveting someone for a couple days. Amen.

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