How can religion be evil?

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Sheldon's picture
IN the bible the deity

IN the bible the deity tortured King David's newborn baby to death to punish King David for conceiving it in an adulterous affair.

So much for objective morality.

Like SFT and Royism refusing to answer if it is ever moral for a 50+ year old man to rape a nine yer old girl, having given the same arrogant sneering lecture about atheistic moral relativity.

WLC said in a public debate that "god" could not do anything immoral when asked if genocide could ever be moral. He said if the god of the bible committed genocide it was moral act.

Neither AJ777 nor WLC understand what morality is as far as I can tell.

AJ777's picture
Can anyone clarify what

Can anyone clarify what passage in the Bible states God tortures children for fun?

Sheldon's picture
Why in your opinion is it

Why in your opinion is it not morally acceptable to torture children?

If as you claim not torturing children is an objective moral fact, why according to the bible did your deity torture King David's new born baby to death?

Is slavery ever morally acceptable? If not why does the bible condone it repeatedly, including Jesus entreating slaves to obey their masters, even the cruel ones?

Algebe's picture
AJ777: Can anyone clarify

AJ777: Can anyone clarify what passage in the Bible states God tortures children for fun?

How about the Plagues of Egypt. I think children would have suffered because of the biting insects, the boils, the fiery hail, and of course the plague that killed the first-born. After each plague, God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't give in. I guess God wanted to have more fun.

David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"Can anyone clarify what passage in the Bible states God tortures children for fun?"

Let us begin with the simple message god and his accomplice did, laying a guilt trip on newborns. According to this deity, everyone is born with sin. Anyone with a basic understanding of psychology understands that as soon as a child is able to comprehend, telling them that they are born flawed and doomed for an eternity in hell is as sadistic and traumatic as one could inflict.

Or how about the message that jesus preached, that to follow him one had to place jesus above everything else, including family and loved ones. I'm sorry Susy, although you are my daughter, you aren't that important to me.

Then let us wander into the past and the story of the exodus. At one stage Moses had actually convinced the pharaoh to let them go, and god decided just for the fuck of it, to hardened his heart so he reversed his decision. Thus those children suffered a few more plagues before they were tortured by spending the next forty years wandering the desert.

How about the great flood, imagine all those children drowning? As children they were obviously innocent, but they too had to suffer a horrible death.

You may read all kinds of cool inspiration in the bible, but in the background, innocent children were the victims of this god's whimsy and sadistic cruelty.

Cognostic's picture
Happy is he who repays you

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalms 137:8-9)

He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. (2 Kings 15:16)

But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. (1 Samuel 15:3)

God LOVES A GOOD MURDER!!!

arakish's picture
@ AJ777

@ AJ777

The Obscenity of Christianity

Please give your thoughts on how such an immoral monster such as William Lane Craig can exist?

And required viewing by ALL Religious Absolutists. 48 videos, but they are perfect as why us Rational Free Thinkers can find religion to be Pure Evil.

Thunderf00t's Why Do People Laugh at Creationists? series.

rmfr

AJ777's picture
I’m curious if anyone is

I’m curious if anyone is familiar with the difference between religion and Christianity?

Religion: do good so God won’t punish you in Hell.
Christianity: do good out of gratitude for the free gift of eternal life in Heaven with Him.
Religion: you can work and earn your salvation.
Christianity: we have all fallen short of the standard which is perfection, thus cannot earn grace or forgiveness.
Religion: I can look down on others who are not as good or as moral as I am because I am earning my salvation.
Christianity: I cannot look down on others because I am just as bad or sinful as non religious persons, in many cases even more so.
Religion: I can be good enough to get to God.
Christianity: none are good and cannot save themselves, so God came down to us.
Religion: god only loves me when I am good.
Christianity: I am not good or moral, yet god loves me still. He loves me because I am his child.

xenoview's picture
@aj777

@aj777
Christianity is a religion, what part of that don't you understand? You have discribed what your religion/Christianity is all about.

Algebe's picture
@AJ777: I’m curious if anyone

@AJ777: I’m curious if anyone is familiar with the difference between religion and Christianity?

All of the attributes you list for religion also apply to Christianity. In fact, Christianity is the archetypal holier-than-thou, what's-in-it-for-me religion.

But I sense a "no true Scotsman" fallacy lurking behind your post.

Sheldon's picture
I'm curious if you're ever

I'm curious if you're ever going to tell us why you think it never morally acceptable to torture children? You've said you hold this opinion, but won't tell us why, is it a secret?

Also explain how you claim it is your personal opinion, and you claim it is an objective moral fact, the the two things are mutually exclusive, since the word objective is defined as not being influenced by personal opinion?

Sapporo's picture
AJ777: I’m curious if anyone

AJ777: I’m curious if anyone is familiar with the difference between religion and Christianity?

Religion: do good so God won’t punish you in Hell.
Christianity: do good out of gratitude for the free gift of eternal life in Heaven with Him.
Religion: you can work and earn your salvation.
Christianity: we have all fallen short of the standard which is perfection, thus cannot earn grace or forgiveness.
Religion: I can look down on others who are not as good or as moral as I am because I am earning my salvation.
Christianity: I cannot look down on others because I am just as bad or sinful as non religious persons, in many cases even more so.
Religion: I can be good enough to get to God.
Christianity: none are good and cannot save themselves, so God came down to us.
Religion: god only loves me when I am good.
Christianity: I am not good or moral, yet god loves me still. He loves me because I am his child.

According to Christianity, Jesus redeemed everyone's "sins", thus no one should take responsibility for their actions.

According to Christianity, people are tortured for eternity for not believing in Christianity.

According to Christianity, the individual has no inherent value, except as a tool to worship Christ.

According to Christianity, the individual is inherently flawed, and cannot do good without Christ.

According to Christianity, good acts have no value in themselves.

You have just revealed that you only do good in return for a reward, not because it is good in itself. This sort of reasoning means that if you stopped believing in Christ, you would stop doing good and would only do bad things. This is an immoral worldview.

AJ777's picture
Jesus paid the price for sin,

Jesus paid the price for sin, this does not make sin disappear or have no consequences.
The free will choice to not want to be in the presence of God for eternity and be absent from all goodness and it’s source causes internal torment not torture. Those in hell would still not choose to leave though.
The individual is made in the image of God and of more value than angels.
An atheist can do good without God, true virtue vs common virtue. Atheists can do acts of true virtue, doing right because it is right, not for selfish reasons or out of fear and pride. Only in Christianity can one do a good act because without objective morality good is a made up idea.

Sapporo's picture
AJ777: Jesus paid the price

AJ777: Jesus paid the price for sin, this does not make sin disappear or have no consequences.
The free will choice to not want to be in the presence of God for eternity and be absent from all goodness and it’s source causes internal torment not torture. Those in hell would still not choose to leave though.
The individual is made in the image of God and of more value than angels.
An atheist can do good without God, true virtue vs common virtue. Atheists can do acts of true virtue, doing right because it is right, not for selfish reasons or out of fear and pride. Only in Christianity can one do a good act because without objective morality good is a made up idea.

1 John 2:2 says that:
"He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 Timothy 4:10 says that:
We trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.

You seem to be saying that Jesus is the Savior of all men, but that he tortures most of them for eternity.

You also seem to be saying that objective morality exists, but selectively stops existing in cases where individuals live good lives but happen not to be Christian, in which case their good deeds somehow stop being good.

The bible says that atheists are incapable of doing good, even though the biggest donators to charity in history have been atheists or agnostic.

David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"Jesus paid the price for sin"

No, he did not. This is simple to resolve, is jesus in heaven or is everything about jesus, including his soul, totally gone?

All that happened was that he had a bad hair day, died, went to heaven for three days of sun and fun (like Ford Lauderdale), did a quick return appearance, then went back up into the sky to continue the party.

arakish's picture
@ AJ777

@ AJ777

What is that old adage about horse and water?

AJ777: “Jesus paid the price for sin, this does not make sin disappear or have no consequences.

First, you have to prove Hey-soos actually existed. There is absolutely no evidence Hay-soos even existed.

AJ777: “The free will choice to not want to be in the presence of God for eternity and be absent from all goodness and it’s source causes internal torment not torture.

Who Sends Who to Hell?

I do not remember if the Qu'ran says the same, but I do know the Christians always preach that it is NOT their God who sends people to Hell, but it is the people who choose to go to Hell. I think you Christians are so full of bullshit, that that is the reason why you cannot smell the stench of what you preach. However, I beg to differ that is the people who choose to send themselves to Hell.

  • Is your deity responsible for the creation of the universe?
  • Is your deity responsible for the creation of the heavens?
  • Is your deity responsible for the creation of the Earth?
  • Is your deity responsible for the creation of Heaven?
  • Is your deity responsible for the creation of Hell?
  • Is there nothing that occurs without the will of your deity?
  • Is your deity responsible for the criteria (rules) of who shall go to Heaven or Hell?

If the answer you gave for all the questions above is “Yes,” then it is your diety who is ultimately responsible for those it chooses to send to Hell. Anyone who forces criteria as to who gets saved and who gets damned is the same who that is responsible. Forcing such criteria no longer allows the freedom of choice. Think Critically about it.

AJ777: “Those in hell would still not choose to leave though.

I'd rather be Hell than to be subservient to a jealous, mysogynistic, infanticidal, unforgiving, bloodthirsty genocidal ethnic cleanser, megalomanical, sadomasichistic, malevolent monster. You do realize the ONLY thing you are gong to be doing in Heaven? Kneeling and bowing before such a monster and singing "holy, holy, holy" for the rest of eternity.

AJ777: “The individual is made in the image of God and of more value than angels.

Actually it is reversed. Man made God in his image: jealous, mysogynistic, infanticidal, unforgiving, bloodthirsty genocidal ethnic cleanser, megalomanical, sadomasichistic, malevolent monster. Robert A Heilein: “Men rarely, if ever, manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled brat.

AJ777: “An atheist can do good without God, true virtue vs common virtue.

You do realize that atheists are actually more moral than theists?

Some GIS Research Into The GOOD Of Religion

“Current research evidence does not support the common view that religiosity is positively correlated with good morality,” said Sam Harris.

In fact, I used QGIS software, and the TIGER data from the Census Bureau and crime data files from the FBI to see how correct his statement is. It took me several months, but my research has shown that the more religious a population, the higher the crime rates, specifically violent crime. While the same research shows that the more educated (thus less religious) a population, the lower the crime rates. If religion is so damned good for us, then why does it seem to spawn so much more violent crime?

Here are some research numbers. This is only in the United States, perhaps the most religious nation on Earth (excepting some Muslim nations). Green = Highly educated; persons with at least a Master’s degree or higher, or multiple (2+) Baccalaureate or higher degrees. Red = Highly religious; persons with low education (no high school diploma), Associate’s degree or lower, or no degrees.

  • Of the 25 states with the lowest rates of crime, 5 are red, 20 are green (a 1:4 ratio).
  • Of the 25 states with the highest rates of crime, 19 are red, 6 are green (a 3:1 ratio).
  • Of the 25 most dangerous cities, 22 are red, 3 are green (a 7:1 ratio).
  • Of the 20 most safest cities, only 2 are red, 18 are green (a 1:9 ratio).
  • Of the 19 states with the highest rates of burglary, 16 are red, 3 are green (a 5:1 ratio).
  • Of the 22 states with the highest rates of theft, 18 are red, 4 are green (a 4:1 ratio).
  • Of the 22 states with the highest rates of murder, 19 are red, 3 are green (a 6:1 ratio).

Notes on how I chose these listings. With the cities/states I chose enough from the list to get at least “3” of whichever color. The only exceptions are the 20 most safest cities due to the fact that to get a third “red” city, I would have had to take the top 38 most safest cities making it 3 are red, 35 are green giving a ratio of 1:12. I figured a 1:9 ratio was bad enough. And to really add insult to injury, to get the fourth “red” safest city, it would been 52 cities making it 4 are red, 48 are green, still a 1:12 ratio. And you call us atheists dangerous and immoral, and to be trusted less than rapists and murderers.

And to add more insult to injury, the first red “most safest” city does not appear until number 16. And to pour salt in the wound, in the “most dangerous” cities, the three green ones are numbers 19, 22, and 25. So much for atheism being so dangerous.

On the highest theft, I could have stopped at 21 cities making 18 are red, 3 are green. Since adding the 22nd city would lower the ratio (from 6:1 to 4:1) I decided to be a nice guy and cut you Religious Absolutists some slack. I also made it match the number of highest murder states.

I made the choices above just so I would not have to listen to your whiney-ass pleas about being a vindictive atheist. See, us atheists are actually good people.

Reiteration: If religion is so damned good for us, then why does it seem to spawn so much more violent crime?

These I could NOT cut any slack for you Religious Absolutists. More shocking numbers on the goodness of religion (researched as an afterthought):

  • 93% of convicted child molesters identify themselves as Christian ShockedSmiley (1K) (a 13:1 ratio).
  • 84% of all inmates identify themselves as religious believers (a 5:1 ratio).
  • 0.02% of inmates identify themselves as Atheist, meaning only 1 in 5000 are Atheist.

Look again at the first one. This definitely warrants: “God Damn, what the fuck is wrong with you Christians?” I mean, “93% of convicted child molesters identify themselves as Christian?” What the Hell kind of Fucked Up crap is that?! And since, when?, the mid-80s, this has really come back to bite you Christians in the ass. Especially the Catholic branch of Christianity, but all of Christianity is guilty.

AJ777: “Atheists can do acts of true virtue, doing right because it is right, not for selfish reasons or out of fear and pride.

Arthur Paliden: “True morality is doing what is right without the threat of divine damnation nor the possibility of divine reward.

H. L. Mencken: “Morality is doing right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.

'Nuff said.

AJ777: “Only in Christianity can one do a good act because without objective morality good is a made up idea.

Steven Weinberg: “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.

Now to go back and read others' posts.

rmfr

David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"I’m curious if anyone is familiar with the difference between religion and Christianity?"

After reading your analysis, it is sadly and painfully obvious that christianity takes evil to a whole new level.
Additionally, religion is not just the Abrahamic religions which you are describing, there are many more not as cruel. For example, Shinto does not ascribe to your description.

Cognostic's picture
THIS IS THE STUPIDEST SHIT I

THIS IS THE STUPIDEST SHIT I HAVE EVER HEARD:
Religion: do good so God won’t punish you in Hell.
Christianity: do good out of gratitude for the free gift of eternal life in Heaven with Him.
(HOW IN THE HELL IS IT FREE IF YOU HAVE TO WORSHIP JESUS TO GET IT?) Reminds me of the knock knock joke. "Knock Knock." "Whose there?" "Jesus." "Jesus who." "Hey, just let me in."
"Why?" "So I can save you." "Save me from what?" "From what I am going to do to you if you don't let me in." YOUR RELIGION IS BULLSHIT!

Religion: you can work and earn your salvation. (CATHOLICISM)
Christianity: we have all fallen short of the standard which is perfection, thus cannot earn grace or forgiveness. (NO. WE ARE BORN INTO THIS WORLD IN A STATE OF "ORIGINAL SIN." WE ARE BORN DEFECTIVE AND BOUND FOR HELL. SALVATION COMES THROUGH ACCEPTANCE OF JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR.) This is why babies burn in hell and why the Catholics had to create Limbo. "Catholic theology, Limbo is a doctrine concerning the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the Damned." FUCK YOUR STANDARD.

Religion: I can look down on others who are not as good or as moral as I am because I am earning my salvation.
Christianity: I cannot look down on others because I am just as bad or sinful as non religious persons, in many cases even more so. (WRONG - THERE IS NO DISTINCTION HERE. "I AM SAVED AND YOU ARE DAMNED. CHRISTIANITY AND CATHOLICISM ARE "CLOSED" FAITHS. YOU ARE EITHER IN THE GROUP AND SAVED OR OUTSIDE THE GROUP AND DAMNED. ALL NON-BELIEVERS BURN IN HELL. ) YOUR DOGMA DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR ASSERTION.

Religion: I can be good enough to get to God.
Christianity: none are good and cannot save themselves, so God came down to us.
DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL. "Romans 3:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" See ORIGINAL SIN. It makes no difference which perspective you carry around with you.

Religion: god only loves me when I am good.
Christianity: I am not good or moral, yet god loves me still. He loves me because I am his child.
AND THIS IS HOW RAPISTS AND MURDERERS GET INTO HEAVEN. JUST ACCEPT JESUS AND YOU ARE GOOD TO GO. NO PUNISHMENT AT ALL FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR AND YOU GET CAKE AND ICE CREAM IN HEAVEN..

YOUR RELIGION IS AMORAL FROM THE BOTTOM UP.

arakish's picture
@ AJ777

@ AJ777

I’m curious if anyone is familiar with the difference between religion and Christianity?

Religion: do good so God won’t punish you in Hell.
Christianity: do good out of gratitude for the free gift of eternal life in Heaven with Him.
Religion: you can work and earn your salvation.
Christianity: we have all fallen short of the standard which is perfection, thus cannot earn grace or forgiveness.
Religion: I can look down on others who are not as good or as moral as I am because I am earning my salvation.
Christianity: I cannot look down on others because I am just as bad or sinful as non religious persons, in many cases even more so.
Religion: I can be good enough to get to God.
Christianity: none are good and cannot save themselves, so God came down to us.
Religion: god only loves me when I am good.
Christianity: I am not good or moral, yet god loves me still. He loves me because I am his child.

There is no difference. Christianity is a form of religion. Neutron Star is starting to look light and fluffy...

rmfr

AJ777's picture
Though we know there is an

Though we know there is an objective standard of right and wrong we don’t want it applied to ourselves. We want to be masters of our lives and accountable to no one. Admitting this takes humility. No amount of evidence or reasoning will be enough for those of us that simply don’t want God. Far easier to filter all evidence and logical arguments through the lens of my judgement being the most reliable and ultimate authority in my life.

xenoview's picture
@aj777

@aj777
First you have to prove your god is real. That requires objective evidence. Evidence that comes from outside of the mind, that can be tested.

Like it or not, morals are subjective, no god required. You are the one deciding what is right and wrong. Do you treat people how you want to be treated?

Sheldon's picture
There is no objective

There is no objective morality, even you have admitted this today, sating torturing children is morally wrong *in your personal opinion*. Though suspiciously you're now refusing to tell us why you think it is wrong? Almost as if you see your error, but don't have the integrity to admit it.

CyberLN's picture
AJ777, you wrote, “Though we

AJ777, you wrote, “Though we know there is an objective standard of right and wrong we don’t want it applied to ourselves.”

No, WE do not, in fact, know there is an objective standard of right/wrong.

“We want to be masters of our lives and accountable to no one.”

I don’t just ‘want’ to be the master of my own life, I AM the master of my own life. However comma I both understand and accept that I am accountable to others.

“No amount of evidence or reasoning will be enough for those of us that simply don’t want God.”

Is there, then, enough evidence for those who neither want nor don’t want any gawds?

“Far easier to filter all evidence and logical arguments through the lens of my judgement being the most reliable and ultimate authority in my life.”

Well, it may or may not be easier to filter evidence and logical arguments through the lens of my judgement but it is the only option.

AJ777's picture
Cyber, you are not the master

Cyber, you are not the master of your life, you did not choose when, where, how, to whom you were born. You did not get to choose your sex. In atheism/naturalism there is no ultimate accountability/justice Hitler is in the same state as the most kind and good to have ever lived.

David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

Are you kidding? Hitler was a theist. All he had to do was accept god, and he got a free pass.

arakish's picture
AJ777: "Hitler is in the same

AJ777: "Hitler is in the same state as the most kind and good to have ever lived."

You have that so completely backwards. Hitler was a theist, a Christian, a Catholic. That means he belonged to one of the most evil cults of humanity. Boy, you need to some research before you lie.

rmfr

Nyarlathotep's picture
AJ777 - In atheism/naturalism

AJ777 - In atheism/naturalism there is no ultimate accountability/justice...

I couldn't agree more: in that justice is an illusion, at best.

Sapporo's picture
AJ777: Though we know there

AJ777: Though we know there is an objective standard of right and wrong we don’t want it applied to ourselves. We want to be masters of our lives and accountable to no one. Admitting this takes humility. No amount of evidence or reasoning will be enough for those of us that simply don’t want God. Far easier to filter all evidence and logical arguments through the lens of my judgement being the most reliable and ultimate authority in my life.

If there was an objective standard of right and wrong, you would be able to say that acts that are right should be done independently of your own personal reward. Instead, you are saying something is right or wrong dependent on the existence of a being.

You seem to think that your senses are infallible, and that your sense of morality is anything other than personal taste (or most likely, the taste you inherited from your parents).

arakish's picture
@ AJ777

@ AJ777

You need to quit plagiarizing from William Lane Craig. Everything you posted in your last two posts (this one and the one before) is almost exactly the same bullshit William Lane Craig has said in his debates.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"Why in your opinion is it not morally acceptable to torture children?

If as you claim torturing children is an objectively immoral act, why according to the bible did your deity torture King David's new born baby to death?

Is slavery ever morally acceptable? If not why does the bible condone it repeatedly, including Jesus entreating slaves to obey their masters, even the cruel ones?

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