How can religion be evil?

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Sapporo's picture
AJ777: That is a metaphysical

AJ777: That is a metaphysical statement.

In the sense that it is internally consistent while not saying anything about reality, this is true. I don't see how your comment makes necessary beings true.

edit: typos/grammar

Algebe's picture
@AJ777: So, if the Christian

@AJ777: So, if the Christian God exists His commandments must be the moral standard.

Which of the commandments forbids rape or torture? Which commandment requires parents to protect and cherish their children?

Sapporo's picture
Omniscience is one aspect of

Omniscience is one aspect of God, but also in Christian theology He is the ultimate source of goodness, and cannot do evil or sin. If a god exists this would make sense because if that being was not the greatest possible being, it would not be God, another being would be superior to it and therefore that being would be God. So the taste of this greatest possible being would be prefect, true, correct, never changing, because if it did change it would no longer be the greatest possible. So, if the Christian God exists His commandments must be the moral standard.

This is what you believe, not what you know.

The greatest possible being is an arbitrary concept. There is no reason why the greatest possible being would be absolutely perfect or moral: this is a matter of taste.

Sheldon's picture
"Omniscience is one aspect of

"Omniscience is one aspect of God, but also in Christian theology He is the ultimate source of goodness, and cannot do evil or sin."

So is the Noah flood a myth then? Or are you saying global genocide is not evil? How about torturing King David's newborn son to death over 7 days, not evil? How about murdering Job's entire family and tormenting him just to win a bet, evil or no?

"if the Christian God exists His commandments must be the moral standard."

How can you assess this moral standard? All you;re doing here is using a vapid tautology to assert it without any objective evidence for it's existence or it;s perfect morality.

LogicFTW's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777
If "god" cannot do evil or sin, he should be real upset with the various religions retelling of him in their various books and congregations. organizations etc.

Why does it feel like just about any religion based around a god, would only detract from an omniscience or source of all goodness god? Why can't it just be: skip all the religious bull shit, (obviously human made) and just be grateful you are alive, and if this supposed god idea exist, you can be with it in the afterlife? No rules no wasting time praying or going to church or any of that crap? Seems like all religion just gets in the way based on the way you describe this god idea.

 
 

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David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"Omniscience is one aspect of God, but also in Christian theology He is the ultimate source of goodness, and cannot do evil or sin."

Then christian theology is wrong. If one examines the evidence of your god's actions from the bible, this god is one sick and sadistic pervert. There is theology which arrives at conclusions based on assumptions, and there is evidence. I go with the evidence.

Then again, wasn't theology once busy for decades debating how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?

Diotrephes's picture
AJ777,

AJ777,

"So, if the Christian God exists His commandments must be the moral standard."

When was the last time you sacrificed a lamb or some turtledoves?

AJ777's picture
Leviticus 19:18 “love your

Leviticus 19:18 “love your neighbor as yourself”

Sapporo's picture
AJ777:

AJ777:

Leviticus 19:18 “love your neighbor as yourself”

Didn't Hitler shoot himself?

AJ777's picture
Should we take moral guidance

Should we take moral guidance from Hitlers worldview?

Sapporo's picture
AJ777: Should we take moral

AJ777: Should we take moral guidance from Hitlers worldview?

Depends on your point of view. If you believe that you should "love your neighbor as yourself", then you have no problem with people harming others as long as they harm themselves an equal amount.

Algebe's picture
AJ777: Should we take moral

AJ777: Should we take moral guidance from Hitlers worldview?

He was pretty much orthodox in terms of religious/Christian "morality". He hated Jews and communism. He believed in conquest and colonialism. He was obsessed with relics and blood.

He would have made a great pope or televangelist.

Sheldon's picture
He was a lifelong christian,

He was a lifelong christian, in a country where some tens of million nearly 94% of the populations was christian. You had to be a christian before you could be considered for the SS.

Where is it you think antisemitism comes from exactly?

You know the KKK is a christian organisation right?

arakish's picture
Sheldon: "You know the KKK is

Sheldon: "You know the KKK is a christian organisation right?"

Damn sure is. I lived in an area of North Carolina where the KKK was also strong. Glad to see their strength has diminished over the years. They are still quite outspoken and most have transformed into Aryan Nation, Nazi Skin Heads, etc. But all of them are Christian by their nature.

rmfr

Algebe's picture
@AJ777: Leviticus 19:18 “love

@AJ777: Leviticus 19:18 “love your neighbor as yourself”

That's a bit vague isn't it? Who's my neighbor?

The Ten Commandments have very specific rules about images, days off, swearing, and which god to pick. But not one word about really awful crimes like rape and child abuse.

AJ777's picture
There is also no mention of

There is also no mention of internet financial crimes, does that mean it is not immorality?

LogicFTW's picture
But why does various

But why does various christian god ideas pick a few things like: only worship me all others are false, and other related in the limited space of 10 commandments, (using several of the commandments on this depending on which version!), but cant fit: "thou shall not rape, enslave or injure/torture others."

Wouldn't the one true almighty god not be very worried about false idol worship? Why would this "god" idea care so much about that, but not about things like rape and enslavement?

I am not worried if my family loves me or not, why not? Because I am very confident that they love me very much just as I love them, I would feel no need to to say: "thou shall not love others besides me!"
 
 

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AJ777's picture
Sexual immorality prohibition

Sexual immorality prohibition covers rape, modern day slavery is kidnapping and prohibited as well. God does not need you to worship Him. If I worship a false idol maybe I have a red sports car I worship that is not what God designed me to do and will not result in ultimate good for me. The warning against idol worship is for my benefit not Gods. If God the greatest possible non-contingent being exists there can only be one God. All others would be false, not worthy of worship and therefore ultimately harmful for the worshippers eternal destiny.

Algebe's picture
@AJ777: modern day slavery is

@AJ777: modern day slavery is kidnapping and prohibited as well.

So where do you think ancient slaves came from? One way or another, people were dragged from their homes and families and sold in markets like cattle.

Jesus was ok with that. When he cured the centurion's slave, he didn't say "Now give him his freedom." So I guess he thought slavery was natural and moral. The Old Testament makes frequent references to slavery without ever condemning it.

LogicFTW's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

Interesting how you have to say: "modern day slavery" so what about the 2000+ years before modern day? All okay then because... well slavery was considered okay back then?

God does not need you to worship Him.

Great! Then let's stop worshipping him, lets turn all the churches into homeless shelters and food banks, and stop talking about god and stop organizing and creating division and difference over various interpretations of god.

If I worship a false idol maybe I have a red sports car I worship that is not what God designed me to do and will not result in ultimate good for me.

Ah you contradict your self one sentence to the next, so god does need you to not worship anything other than him now? Which is it? Can I just not worship anything? Oh hey, that's pretty close to atheist right there!

The warning against idol worship is for my benefit not Gods.

Is is your benefit because you will be in hell instead of heaven? Why cant god just be like: "dude it is cool, I am not insecure, I am all powerful and all knowing, you can worship whatever you want and when you die and join me in heaven we will still be bros." Why would an all powerful all knowing being care if someone gets worships the wrong god/idol?" Realize a "god" caring about what humans believe is very roughly analogous to you caring whether the nearest ant hill to where you live, if the ants operate in clockwise or counterclockwise loops when they complete their tasks that involve going in roughly a circle.

not worthy of worship and therefore ultimately harmful for the worshippers eternal destiny.

Okay I can sort of see why "false gods" would not be worthy of worship, but why is it harmful? Is it because god gets jealous? I mean if god is all good, why can't he just: "believe what you like and in the afterlife, if you were ultimately a decent person by some mysterious unclear standard it is all good?"

Question for you, how do you know your god idea that you worship is the one true god, and not a false idol to the actual one "true god." How do you differentiate your particular god idea from all the other god ideas? How do you know that your god is the "real god" and not the flying spaghetti monster?
 
 

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Sheldon's picture
"slavery is kidnapping and

"slavery is kidnapping and prohibited as well. "

Obviously not, else why does the bible endorse slavery specifically again and again, even Jesus supposedly said slaves obey your masters, even the cruel ones.

Same old bullshit you theists spout every time.

David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"Sexual immorality prohibition covers rape, modern day slavery is kidnapping and prohibited as well. God does not need you to worship Him. If I worship a false idol maybe I have a red sports car I worship that is not what God designed me to do and will not result in ultimate good for me. The warning against idol worship is for my benefit not Gods. If God the greatest possible non-contingent being exists there can only be one God. All others would be false, not worthy of worship and therefore ultimately harmful for the worshippers eternal destiny."

Don't your arms get tired from shoveling so much horseshit?

Sexual immorality prohibition is just your god's way of peeking into every bedroom, rape is much more horrible, it is an act of violence and control. Rape is rape, done too often in the bible and it's horrors should not be diluted by assigning it to the category of just sexual immorality.

Modern day slavery? My, how you love to try to move the goalposts. Let us return to the bible, which condones and lays out rules on how to conduct the despicable practice of slavery. Do not dilute slavery as just kidnapping, it is the practice of owning another human being.

What the fuck does adoring a Ferrari have to do with god? Once again, you are attempting a distraction.

"God designed me"? Wow, once again an unsupported assertion. My, how you like to try to slip in more BS.

The warning against idol worship comes from a paranoid and insecure homicidal creature. That warning serves just god, no one else.

Non-contingent being? Once again, unsupported wild assertions.

Sheldon's picture
Mon, 01/07/2019 - 16:23

Mon, 01/07/2019 - 16:23
AJ777
"Sexual immorality prohibition covers rape, "

Not even close to being true. If it were spousal rape would have been a crime in Christian countries and this has not been the case until very recently, and it still isn't a crime in some Christian countries.

One also can't help but notice your deity condoning and even encouraging mass rapine and the sec trafficking of young virginal girls and women in the bible. To hold this vile book up as any kind of moral standard is risible, to champion it as a perfect moral standard is absurd.

Algebe's picture
AJ777: There is also no

AJ777: There is also no mention of internet financial crimes, does that mean it is not immorality?

LOL. That's covered by "Thou shalt not steal" isn't it?

Does that mean that god is more concerned about property crimes than crimes against the person, such as rape, torture, and enslavement?

AJ777's picture
So, you’ve discovered that

So, you’ve discovered that there are general prohibitions that also cover specific cases. Interesting.

Algebe's picture
@AJ777: So, you’ve discovered

@AJ777: So, you’ve discovered that there are general prohibitions that also cover specific cases. Interesting.

Interesting that you find that interesting. Theft is a pretty simple concept and can be extended to encompass crimes like fraud.

But what kind of general prohibition would cover disparate crimes like rape, enslavement, and torture? I think those things are awful enough and common enough (now and in biblical times) to merit their own specific sanctions. I guess you and god disagree.

Sheldon's picture
Did it really not occur to

Did it really not occur to Moses or the Hebrews not to kill rape and steal from each other until they were told by a deity? Something you and they have in common then apparently. Doesn't sound like objective morality to me.

Sheldon's picture
It endorses slavery

It endorses slavery repeatedly, and that includes an anecdote assigned to gentle Jesus meek and mild.

Is slavery immoral? Southern white Christians certainly cited those biblical endorsements in defence of their vile trade in human misery.

You can't make therisible assertion religion provides objective morality then subjectively cherry pick which bits of the bibles bigotry and prejudice to champion as moral.

David Killens's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

"There is also no mention of internet financial crimes, does that mean it is not immorality?"

It is more about a supposed all powerful creature not being able to predict the coming of the internet.

Sheldon's picture
AJ777 Leviticus 19:18 “love

AJ777 Leviticus 19:18 “love your neighbor as yourself”

Luke 14:26 “25 Many people were travelling with Jesus. If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 14:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God.”

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