In my opinion, the hardest thing for religion to overcome is facts proven by scientific evidence. Facts of science kills it dead. Except for the religious nuts who refuse to believe anything that wasn’t preached to them in some nauseating fashion. My point is this, hundreds of years ago, people were scared shitless by everyday occurrences. Thunder, eclipses, storms, hell anything they didn’t fully understand was credited to god. Knowledge, over time has made this less of an occurrence. If starting today, young children were never taught religion, they would never desire to learn about it. The story of evolution, and the countless examples of modern technology, space exploration, solving the mysteries of our own Earth are far more compelling than some godly rapist and savior bullshit. It truly, and I mean truly baffles me this shit is given the time of day! I find it hilarious that judges are sworn in under an oath, but they couldn’t take into evidence what we could gather to prove the existence of god, Jesus, or anything religious, and say without a doubt, it exists! But in god we trust is posted around many government buildings and court houses. If not brainwashed, it would be very difficult to take an educated person with just common sense and make them religious. I know there are always exceptions, but most would find it absurd. Religion exists because idiots force feed it to their children and thus the cycle never ends.
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
Ahhh yes. Religion: A big fluffy pillow, full of soft comfort, for the ignorant to rest their empty heads upon.
@ Cog
I am sooo stealing this line....
I just added this one to my ARfavquotes.html file for my Wild Tangents website. Still ain't uploaded it yet though.
rmfr
@Pirate Jack
I would be scared shitless by all those too back then. No lightning rods, no modern shelter to protect from the elements, and a vague notion that sun = life and safety, and not knowing the eclipse will end just as quickly as it began if I happened to experience one, would scare the *shit* out of me.
Eclipses are a fun one for me. The ancient Mayan empire was able to figure out roughly when the next would occur in their area and realized it did follow a pattern if a pattern that played out over generations. What did they do with this knowledge? Used the information to further their agendas, namely to help their control over people that were not aware of this pattern and that it would end.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
LogicFTW,
"Eclipses are a fun one for me. The ancient Mayan empire was able to figure out roughly when the next would occur in their area and realized it did follow a pattern if a pattern that played out over generations."
I'm curious. Does anyone know how to calculate eclipses for his area? Ancient people seem to have been able to figure it out but I don't have a clue. You would think that schools would teach something like that but none of mine did. Right now I couldn't do it for a million pounds of pure gold.
It has to be a simple system, no use of advanced mathematics. I'm sure that ancient people didn't have the use of calculators or even reliable calendars. Sometimes 5 + 5 seems like advanced math to me so it has to be super simple.
@ Diotrephes
Try this website: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/in.html
https://www.astroaura.net/lunar-eclipse-calculator.html (based in Thailand!)
https://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/SolarEclipses.php
As for actually calculating it yourself, I have the method somewhere in my astronomy books, but too lazy to look them up since there are so many online calculators. Just do a search for "eclipse calculator online"
rmfr
arakish,
"Just do a search for "eclipse calculator online""
I'm well aware of the online calculators but that was not my point.
My point was that ancient people could calculate eclipses. They didn't know where they were on the planet, they didn't have accurate calendars, they didn't have calculators, they didn't know a lot of other astrological facts or know advanced mathematics. So how did they do it?
Here is an interesting article = https://www.popsci.com/people-have-been-able-to-predict-eclipses-for-rea...
It seems to come close but it is still short.
@ Diotrephes
Actually the Mayans and Aztecs did have advanced mathematics. Archaeological evidence shows the Mayans had a Base 20 numbering system, compared to our Base 10, and they also independently developed the concept of "zero" before any others except the Chinese. You need the concept of "zero" in order to do advanced math. Also, you do not need to know your LatLong coordinates to calculate when the next eclipse will occur. You only need know the movement of celestial bodies across the sky. Knowing your LatLong coordinates just makes it easier, but you do not need to know them.
Additionally, if you think about it, those desert-dwelling goat-herders had nothing but the night sky to look at. Some of them were intelligent enough to notice how the stars move across the sky as the Earth orbits the sun. Even though they still thought the Earth was the center, they still catalogued how all the celestial bodies moved across the sky. Doing such cataloguing of data for decades would reveal a pattern. Those patterns could then be used to calculate when "whatever" was going to be "wherever" at a certain time in the future.
All we have done in modern times is to record those patterns and movements into computer programs which calculate much faster than a person can. As long as you know how the celestial objects move in relation to others, you can calculate where they will be in the future.
I'll do some research and write a paper if I have the time. Doubt it as my plate is full. Work, housework, writing a novel, and participating here and another forum board. If only I could event time dilation technology to slow time down for everyone but me.
Otherwise, you will have to research it. Try NASA and JPL. They keep catalogues on such data.
rmfr
arakish,
One thing I never knew, because I never thought about it, is that there are eclipses all the time around the world throughout the year.
https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/list.html?starty=2020
"Year 2019 has 5 eclipses, 3 solar eclipses and 2 lunar eclipses and also a rare planet transit."
https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/2019 This site has all of them from the year 1900 to the year 2199.
There is four to six each year. The island of Papua, New Guinea, seems to be the best spot to see one or at least part of one.
I still haven't seen the pattern for figuring out when they will repeat for a particular area.
Diotrephes: "I still haven't seen the pattern for figuring out when they will repeat for a particular area."
For one particular spot on the Earth, it can be decades between solar eclipses. However, for that same spot, you will be able to see 1 to 2 lunar eclipses, sometimes 3 in one year. As you mentioned, for the entire Earth, there can be four to eleven eclipses; 2-5 solar, 2-6 lunar. However, the average is 2-3 solar and 2-4 lunar. There is usually more lunar eclipses each year than solar due to the Earth's shadow being larger.
As for the pattern for one particular spot on the Earth, it is a rather complicated calculation requiring some advanced calculus. Thus, the reason it is easier to use a computer. For one example, when I was living near Wilmington, NC, we had one total solar eclipse in 1970. Looking it up, for Wilmington, the eclipses were/are: 07 March 1970 total, 30 May 1984 partial, 10 May 1994 partial, 08 April 2024 partial, 10 August 2045 partial. I stopped there. As you can see, for Wilmington, NC, there was total solar eclipse in 1970, I do not know when the next total solar eclipse would be. But covering 75 years, 1 total and 4 partial.
As said, it is complicated.
rmfr
@Diotrephes
For record keepers, tracking solar eclipses for just a small area, while still highly complex to predict accurately, can be predicted with a fair amount of accuracy if you have records that go back far enough. And records of eclipses being such a scary event to people, can go back for a long time. If you have 2000 years of record keeping for eclipses in one small geographic area, a pattern does indeed emerge, even if it is not a very simple obvious pattern like: once every 12 years.
"A solar eclipse always occurs about two weeks before or after a lunar eclipse.
Usually, there are two eclipses in a row, but other times, there are three during the same eclipse season"
Both of these also offer serious clues to ancient skywatchers.
There was an eclipse that had totality for just under 7 minutes in 1991, and naturally depending on where you are, you can have totality eclipse for less then a second as well.
There is one occurring in 2186 that is 7.5 minutes at its apex of totality. That is a long time. If we could travel in a vessel capable of going ~2500 mph you could stay in eclipse totality for hours. And ofcourse the build up waxing and waning of the eclipse takes many hours as well, making it a truly all day major solar event.
I would recommend to anyone if they can at all possible experience at one totality eclipse (not obscured by clouds,) in their life times. I personally seen two totality eclipses and plan to see the April 2024 one in Texas.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
LogicFTW: "There was an eclipse that had totality for just under 7 minutes in 1991, and naturally depending on where you are, you can have totality eclipse for less then a second as well."
We traveled to Cabo San Lucas (msp?) to watch that eclipse in 1991. Absolutely wonderful. As Logic said, if you ever get the chance to watch a total solar eclipse, hell, even an annular solar eclipse, then do so. It is momentous. So far, I have seen three total and one annular solar eclipses. I have lost count of the lunar eclipses, partial and total, to even remember. Missed the one we had in January though.
rmfr
Of course, this is why the fundies are plotting and scheming to keep scientific facts out of the classroom, and replace them with mythological garbage ...
First time posting on this site, so please be gentle!
I find it intriguing when a theist claims to have evidence for the existence of a god, but I am always disappointed. These folks tend to consider an argument to be evidence or they point to their particular holy book and I don't find either case compelling.
I absolutely agree with your last point. I'm certain there are some late-in-life theists, but I believe that most theists are religious because they were pushed into it while young. My parents wanted me to make up my own mind, so they didn't even discuss religion and I am grateful for that, but I do think the cycle will end. The numbers of the non-religious are growing!
Skeptical Kevin,
Welcome to the arena.
"I find it intriguing when a theist claims to have evidence for the existence of a god, but I am always disappointed."
Do you want to live forever? If not then there is no reason to believe in any deity. You already know the difference between good and evil so you are as smart as the biblical God on that issue. Besides, the only people in the Bible who believed in the God character were the con men who forced other people to accept their delusions.
@Diotrephes Thank you!
By disappointed, I only meant that any time someone claims to have evidence, they fail to provide anything compelling. I'm an atheist, but I'm willing to have my mind changed if something compelling comes up, but it just never does. I get disappointed because it's always the same bad arguments with no evidence supporting them.
Skeptical Kevin,
"By disappointed, I only meant that any time someone claims to have evidence, they fail to provide anything compelling."
All versions of celestial Gods concocted by men tthroughout the ages are imaginary. There is no celestial deity of any kind in this solar system. And even if there was it would still be imaginary because it has never shown itself to humanity. If the Jesus character was still wiggling on the cross that would be impressive. I doubt if I would worship him.
People in the bible supposedly saw and spoke to the God character countless times but the common people never really believed their fairy tales about it. The only people who really claimed that they believed in it were the con men, like Moses, and the chief priests. Even Aaron didn't really believe in it although he got rich off of the fairy tale that Moses spewed.
Over the ages countless people have claimed to believe in all sorts of dieties. But not one of those dieties was real. They were all imaginary. And so is Allah and so is Jesus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_by_classification
@Skeptical Kevin
Right, the arguments always seem just good enough to convince someone who is already convinced.
Nyarlathotep: "Right, the arguments always seem just good enough to convince someone who is already convinced."
Another I am stealing for ARfavquotes.html file. However, I did make a slight change...
"Religions: The arguments always seem just good enough to convince someone who is already convinced."
rmfr
@Skeptical Kevin
I feel this way each time I hear a conversion story as well. I always used to think beforehand that they must have something really compelling, that will at least make for a good story - even if I can't necessarily believe them. But no... disappointment every time. I've never once heard a good conversion story - they all end up being so small-minded and inconsequential. Every time it is something that would, in no way, convince me or even get me to waiver one iota on belief in god. Like you, it's not that I actively want to believe in god. If anything, it's probably more that I am just hoping to have some of my faith in humanity restored.
Skeptical Kevin,
Welcome to the forum. Nice profile pic by the way. Final fantasy 1 Nintendo black mage, correct?
@kevinr
Thank you! Yes sir you are correct. There is a FF1 based webcomic I enjoyed as a kid called 8-Bit Theater that I enjoyed as a kid. The Black Mage resonated with me.
I'm a fan of yours as well. A Spock image seems very appropriate for an Atheist forum.
@ kevinr
Yeah, Mr. Spock was my greatest hero when I was growing up. Funny thing is he still is, even 50+ years later. In fact, it was my "reverence" for Mr. Spock and his "logic" that kept me from being completely brainwashed by those despicable Religious Absolutists when I was a child and forced to go to church with me mom.
rmfr
Skeptical Kevin: "First time posting on this site, so please be gentle!"
Just noticed this. Hell No! What makes you think we are going to be gentle to a first time poster? ;-P
Actually, the only time I am not gentle is when someone just makes a super terrible fallacious argument. You, on the other hand, seem to be doing just fine.
rmfr
Thanks Arakish :) I try to avoid fallacies by keeping an open mind and listening to arguments against my positions to paraphrase Matt Dillahunty, I'm always happy to be proven wrong because it means I don't have to be wrong about that thing anymore.
I haven't met many atheists in person, but based on online videos and interactions, I find atheists to be much the same way, with more open minds. A common Christian claim I hear is "Everyone believes in Jesus, some people just suppress it" which I find arrogant as hell.
ha ha ha ha ,,,,, He is not kidding. You post a fallacious belief and half the atheists on the site are going to call you on it. It's not just a site of atheists but a bunch of skeptics as well. Some atheists who pop up on the site vanish faster than the Creationists because of their nonsense. Atheism, unfortunately, is not a shield against ignorance. Those of us who know this tend to get alone a whole lot better.