Proof for the Torah

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CyberLN's picture
Please define what 'fertile'

Please define what 'fertile' means in this case. How fertile? Was the entire area covered in vegetation a few thousand years ago? What caused it to change if it is substantially different now?

biggus dickus's picture
Well this is the oxford

Well, this is the oxford definition, https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fertile

CyberLN's picture
I was asking PJb for his

I was asking PJb for his definition.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
I'd rather focus on the first

I'd rather focus on the first seven prophecies rather than this one bc this requires sources that I haven't prepared..

CyberLN's picture
So, do you claim all these as

So, do you claim all these as proof and yet don't have the sources to back up that claim? If that's the case, then of course you want to focus on the others.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
The first seven prophecies I

The first seven prophecies I have the sources for, it's basic Jewish history. So I'm ready to discuss those, are you?

CyberLN's picture
Well, IMO, Star Trek has been

Well, IMO, Star Trek has been far clearer and more accurate in its predictions so, no, I don't wish to discuss the seven you have suggested. I just don't like your style. You have made a number of statements and then, when called on them, you walk away...like you just did with the 'fertile' comment you made. There are more reasons, but I'll leave it at that one for now.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Mention to me even one

Mention to me even one astonishing prediction by those you mentioned. Btw, I didn't mean to quote the last two prophecies, it was a mistake. Now plz don't get sidetracked with criticism on my style and let's talk business. Are you ready to discuss or are you scared?

biggus dickus's picture
You know, proselytizing is

You know, proselytizing is mainly a christian and Muslim thing. I mean most Jews I know don't really care what others believe.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
You're right, Jews don't

You're right, Jews don't proselytize. But Jews do want EVERYONE to believe in God and serve him with the Seven Universal Noahide laws, that includes:
1) believe in one God
2) do no swear in his name
3) do not murder
4) do not steal
5) do not commit adultery
6) do not worship idols
7) establish just court houses for civil rights

Randomhero1982's picture
Apologies for this being

Apologies for this being lengthy...

You've shown no actually evidence that this was written during the period and not after, and as there isn't a multitude of corroborating evidence to go along with so therefore it can be dismissed... remember exceptional claims demand exceptional evidence!

1 - Your assertion is an argument from ignorance in that your claiming that you get to differ from sceptical analysis but again provide nothing concrete other then anecdotal evidence and your interpretation of that.
Rome begun expending in 600BC so your claim that they wouldn't have know of this place is logically unlikely and your argument is simply your interprition of scripture with no actual evidence.

2 - The fact you mention other nations have been exiled proves this is not a one off and thus your claim still needs to meet the burden of proof

3 - Please supply a link to a peer reviewed study proving the existence of jews in the furthest corners on earth i.e. South Americas, Australia, Japan etc... where are the supporting historical documents from those areas by their own cultures.

4. Argument from ignorance, you are claiming a fact that hasn't been proven to be true not supplied any substantial evidence other than anecdotal... a logical fallacy.

5 - Incredibly vague and hardly constitutes a fulfilment of prophecy, but rather simply a statement.

6 - That is not demonstrably true, people are forced to leave their countries even now and maintain their cultures and beliefs. Yes, they me go along with the rules of that society but that does not mean they fully assimulate.

I could easily continue going through your proofs but we are essentially flogging a dead horse.

Your offering simply logical fallacy and arguments from ignorance and your only evidence is your interpretation of anecdotal evidence.

This doesn't even get close to meeting the burden of proof.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
First of all, thank you for

First of all, thank you for being the first one to actually assess the issue.
You mention the possibility of the prophecies being written after it's fulfillment and thus not prophecy but recording of history. This is impossible though. The fulfillment of this prophecy hastened in the last 2,000 years from the destruction of the temple and on. Yet the dead sea scrolls predate the destruction and already have the prophecies recorded.

1) Your next objection was that the Romans were already famous from the sixth century BCE. This is not do true, as they did indeed begin gaining control at that time is was restricted to their neighbouring areas and were not famous in the middle east. They sprung out quite rapidly sitting the Greek empire and proceeded to occupy and eventually destroy Israel.

2) Your next objection was from this that a few other nations were also exiled. Yet it is still ironic that the prophecy came about bc the chances of Israel being exiled were so slim just like every other nation (the vast majority of nations aren't exiled).
3) Jews are currently found all over the world and have been so for long periods of time. This is basic knowledge and if you don't know about it then do your own research about it. I would love to help you with this but there's no reason you shouldn't do the research yourself, I don't have all day.

4) Are you seriously claiming that the Jews weren't persecuted throughout the last 2,000 years?! I hope you're joking...

5) I didn't get what you're saying. The Torah said a statement about the future I.e. prophecy, and it was fulfilled. The significance of this statement/prophecy is that this puts the odds against survival of the Jews who are dispersed, few in number and are being persecuted.

6) Under the circumstances of the Jewish people it is so unpredictable that they would survive culturally. They were in exiled for 2,000 years, persecuted, few in number (relatively), dispersed - which all ask for assimilation. Yet surprisingly the Jews maintained their beliefs and Torah... A risky prophecy for a human to write - yet was fulfilled, ironically.

These prophecies are truly amazing and convincing to the open minded and objectively honest with themselves. You can be stubborn and blind yourself from the truth or embrace the facts that have been clearly demonstrated.
Decide for yourself...

biggus dickus's picture
You know, I personally find

You know, I personally find this quite convincing... However You are the first Jew I met that uses God, Most say Gd.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
It's nice to find at least

It's nice to find at least one honest person on this web. I usually do write G-d but here for the sake of reader's convenience I write it the way I did. Btw, are you Jewish? Atheists? Both? A believer?

biggus dickus's picture
I Believe my grandmother was

I believe my grandmother was Jewish but, I am agnostic myself.

Randomhero1982's picture
Before I start may i just say

Before I start may i just say your reply is why atheists, free thinkers and critical thinkers can get frustrated with theists... if you re-read what I actually replied, you will see in your response you grossly misrepresented what i actually stated..

But let's keep this civil and try again...

Firstly, I never said anything about it possibly being written after, I said the you made a claim and therefore the burden of proof is with you.. and as great thinkers have stated.. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
What you provide is anecdotal evidence only that in not verifiable, and there are no other varying documents from other civilzations that back your claim. So at best your evidence is pretty slim and poor.

Secondly, I never said the Romans were then famous, that is quite the strawman.. in actuality I said they were 'expanding' from 600BC considering their advancement, size and trading... I would find it tough to believe that no jew had heard of them before they came... again you have provided no proof other than anecdotal evidence that you have taken in a favourable context to your beliefs.

Thirdly, my comment regarding geographical locations of jews was in regards to the era in which you spoke about. So if you can find any information of jews being in south america, north america, Australia, Japan, China etc.. between 500BC and 500AD I would be keen to see it.
You say for me to search but remember, the burden of proof is with you, in order to validate a claim, the claimant must provide the evidence.

Fourt point, the comment that you made an argument from ignorance stands because you claimed it fulfilled prophecy. Yes I believe the jews have suffered terribly as others have too (side note my grand parents fought to save them in WW2 of which I'm immensely proud of, if only we could have got there quicker to save more lives)... but again, to say it's fulfilling prophecy is a monumental claim, one which cannot be proven. Also every people has suffered to a degree or so, some obviously worse then others.. but the point is.. to say a people will suffer is vague as well as highly likely... I doubt any civilisation hasn't been damaged. But again the burden of proof is with you, if you simply stated 'Jews have been treated awfully in the past" I would fully agree! But you take it to the next illogical theist step.

Fifth point, it still maintains as being vague, I would hardly say it's prophecy fulfilling. I could say there will be violence in the Korean peninsula in the future...and this will very likely happen! this is not a prophecy, this can be construed as pointing at what will likely happen.

Sixth point, Yes that may have been true but again it's not out of the ordinary, even today you can walk down a London high street and see people living together and yet maintaining their culture... orthodox jews, Christians, Muslims etc... all side by side living with a law in one country and yet maintaining their beliefs, books and culture.

Your final comment I must say is utter drivel, and I say this without meaning to insult you. Almost all religions believe in some invisible cosmic maige of which there is no evidence of and cannot and will not ever be proved. And you claim we are close minded and blind? I think you owe all on here a grave apology! I have kindly took the time to make a sceptical analysis of your 'proofs' and you claim that your open minded as oppose to a someone who doesn't find any proof in your beliefs?!

That is a very narrow minded thing to do!

Let me make my final conclusion and I apologise to everyone again for the length of this rebuttal... but if you make an extraordinary claim then you must provide extraordinary evidence and not rely on anecdotal evidence! If you make a claim, your proof will be note worthy if you provide links to peer reviewed articles, coorbarating evidence from a side that isn't bias to your agenda.

I would also advise you to stop using logical fallacies in your comments, your position becomes moot when all you offer is arguments of ignorance and incredulity... Also don't misrepresent someone as they will less likely debatewith you in the future, this a common theme with theists.

Have a nice weekend

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Step by step:

Step by step:
"Firstly, I never said anything about it possibly being written after, I said the you made a claim and therefore the burden of proof is with you.. and as great thinkers have stated.. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
What you provide is anecdotal evidence only that in not verifiable, and there are no other varying documents from other civilzations that back your claim. So at best your evidence is pretty slim and poor."

Why do I need other documents to verify it? What needs to get verified? The Torah predicts prophecies, at least 2,000 + years old, and they came to pass. What documents are needed? All is needed is a Torah and a Jewish history book.

"Secondly, I never said the Romans were then famous, that is quite the strawman.. in actuality I said they were 'expanding' from 600BC considering their advancement, size and trading... I would find it tough to believe that no jew had heard of them before they came... again you have provided no proof other than anecdotal evidence that you have taken in a favourable context to your beliefs."

No problem with that. It is possible that they were heard of by some individuals, but as a whole they were not known especially when compared to other nations.

"Thirdly, my comment regarding geographical locations of jews was in regards to the era in which you spoke about. So if you can find any information of jews being in south america, north america, Australia, Japan, China etc.. between 500BC and 500AD I would be keen to see it."

Likewise I would also love to see such a historical record. I never said there was and don't require there to be. Why in the world would Jews need to be there then?

"You say for me to search but remember, the burden of proof is with you, in order to validate a claim, the claimant must provide the evidence."

This is a basic part of common knowledge and there are sources for it. But I don't need to do your homework for you. Remember this isn't a court debate between lawyers, this is a friendly discussion between fellows, so if you don't know something basic I encourage you to do your own research.

Regarding your fourth point:
The Torah states clearly (I think in verses 65-66 or around there) that the Jews won't just be accepted in the land around the world but would rather find no place for their foot to rest. The Jews have undoubtedly suffered much more than the average nation, a basic review of history reveals that. The fact that it was known much before the event is astonishing.

Regarding your fifth point:
I'm not really sure which prophecy you're referring to. Please specify.

Regarding your sixth point:
Judaism it's from the world's oldest religions. What did it go through? Exile from its homeland, dispersion, constant persecution from the Christians and Muslims who wanted to convert them, and few in number. The Christians didn't have this nor did the Muslims, it's against all odds and was still prophesied and fulfilled to be from the world's oldest religions despite the pogroms explosions inquisitions and crusades against it...
Regarding your next point:
I do indeed think the vast majority of the world is close minded and not objectively honest. That's exactly why people generally just accept whatever their parents teach them even though there are so many other religions out there... But this is a whole other long discussion which I'm glad to discuss if you'd like.

Thank you for your effort in writing up this long response, I appreciate discussing with you.
I'd like to end off that I agree with your principle that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, and that's exactly what this evidence is to the objective seeker!

Have a good weekend as well!

Randomhero1982's picture
Thank you for response,

Thank you for response, unfortunately although you are correct in that this is a friendly debate, but a philosophical debate does tend to have parameters that require following...

For example, if you make a premise you must offer concrete evidence of the premise or it may be objected and/or refuted by your opponent.

I tell you this in the event you debate others, I've done it for casual fun and it's a step curve.

You have unfortunately fallen foul in the vast majority of your comments of numerous logical fallacies.

1. Confirmation Bias - You select What you consider as 'evidence' and I use that term loosely, to support your agenda rather then offering actual validity through other avenues i.e. peer review papers

2. Ad Hominem - Producing a slur on someone or a group of people rather than focusing on the debate/Argument

3. Appeal of faith - I don't think this needs elaborating really, I'd hope you see what you did.

4. Argument of ignorance - You make an assumption and/or draw a conclusion despite the clear lack of evidence or with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

5. Strawman - When your misrepresent someone for example your first two paragraphs to my response.

I also urge you to consider that you are posting on an atheist forum, so you have come to us with the claim so you must provide the burden of proof! I reiterate this because against stronger debaters all of your arguments would be destroyed within minutes.

Also again, as your on an atheist forum... I'd like to remind you that atheists lack belief in any god (s) and tend to be critical thinkers, so you need to come forward with a strong case!

We've all heard the "well my holy book says it so it must be true!!!!" arguments.. it's dull and tedious and holds no credibility as evidence to open minded free thinkers.

Thank you for the chat and I'm happy to continue on this or another of your choosing.

Take care

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Thank you for being the only

Thank you for being the only one on this web to send me something longer than three lines. I do appreciate you debating tactics and skills. Yet I haven't come here for that, I've rather come to discuss Deuteronomy 28 of which so far I haven't received a proper logical rebuttal by you atheists. I came with one agenda, and that was to see if one of the pillars of my faith actually has credibility or not - and it seems it does, bc after 6 pages and many different atheists, some intelligent and some not, no one has yet to refute this solid piece of evidence. Any objective honest atheist can do homework with just a Torah and a Jewish history book..!

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - Any

Proud Jewish boy - Any objective honest atheist can do homework with just a Torah and a Jewish history book

Ah yes, the suggestion that we are dishonest; from the guy who told us entire doesn't mean all.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Alright let's try this again.

Alright let's try this again. I'll paste what I've previously posted:
Do you really have no idea of the idea of relativity? "It was raining so badly that the streets were ENTIRELY empty!" Or "the ENTIRE room was going crazy and just dancing away" is part of our regular vocabulary. I wonder if you quoted all those dictionaries last time you heard those statements or similar (let alone when you say such statements)...!

Nyarlathotep's picture
You are the one trying to

You are the one trying to compose a "Proof for the Torah". Do you think it is a good idea to use words in a way that contradicts the dictionary when composing a logical proof?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Alright let's try this yet

Alright let's try this yet one again. I'll paste what I've previously posted twice:
Do you really have no idea of the idea of relativity? "It was raining so badly that the streets were ENTIRELY empty!" Or "the ENTIRE room was going crazy and just dancing away" is part of our regular vocabulary. I wonder if you quoted all those dictionaries last time you heard those statements or similar (let alone when you say such statements)...!

Nyarlathotep's picture
In a proof, when you write

In a proof, when you write "all", "every", "entire", etc; you better mean it; in fact that is why there is a special symbol for it (∀).

If you want write formal proofs, you need to speak the language. If you want to keep playing fast and loose, keep using words in a way that contradicts the dictionary.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
It is totally normal to write

It is totally normal to write entire regarding 90% of the population, especially when the idea is to contrast it to other nations of whom only, say, 5% were exiled. I can't believe you're actually arguing against this..

LogicFTW's picture
If you want to use loose

If you want to use loose definitions of words that's fine, but we will take your proof "loosely" as well.

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

According to the Bible and to the Jewish Babylonian Talmud Gentiles will become slaves to the Jews and each Jew will have 2,800 slaves in the afterlife. What kind of plans do you have for your herd of slaves?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
The world after the messiah

The world after the messiah comes will be one dedicated entirely to the service of the Lord. Therefore the servants won't be used for anything mundane or for self benefit. Rather the gentiles will contribute their part in the service of the Lord by, for example, providing food and shelter for Torah study. Trust me, the servants will be happy to do their job just like the Jews will then be happy to study Torah and pray a whole day. Our nature will change in that sense. Everyone will be running to serve the Lord as His presence will dominate the world in a way that we can physically see it.

chimp3's picture
Megalomania! Ha, hysterically

Megalomania! Ha, hysterically funny. What a fantasy to base your life on.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Your life is based off

Your life is based off fantasies, that we once came from monkeys. In fact you're so proud of your mystery that that's your proud profile picture.

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