Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
FREE E-BOOKS
Get the book "Why There Is No God" and one more book for FREE!
Sign up below for the Atheist Republic Newsletter to get the books.
Record Your Message!
Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast.
Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world.
Note : By clicking record you are allowing us to broadcast your message on any of our platforms.
Affiliate Disclaimer
Links to atheist related books, shirts and movies and other atheism related products are affiliate links.
All proceeds will go to keeping the Atheist Republic website up and running; providing resources, advocacy, community tools and encouragement to atheists all over the world.
"I supplied the evidence in the initial post."
No, you didn't.
@ Cognostic
Well consider the statements (A) and (B).
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
You have already informed me that you do not believe A to be true.
Could you inform me whether you believe B to be true? Or have you been trying to hide whether you do or not the whole time.
Already answered this, read any one of those answers.
A) Is a universe where someone will grasp they can't bore me into submission?
B) Is a universe where someone won't grasp they can't bore me into submisson
Knock yourself out champ.
@Sheldon
You have not answered whether you believe B. You are lying. All you have indicated is that you do not believe A is true. You have not indicated whether you believe B is true or not.
It is like me asking do you believe in C
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
And you replying that you are an atheist, and that atheism means not believing A is true. Saying that you do not believe A is true does not answer whether you believe B is true anymore than it answers whether you believe C is.
How is it I can predict that you won't point out where you answered whether you believe B is true?
My point in http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... was that it was ironic to claim that theists are trying to shift the burden of proof, given that many of those that favour a definition of atheism that simply states they do not believe A is true (which *does not* indicate whether they think B is true) over a definition of atheism that indicates they do believe B to be true (which *does* indicate they think A is false) in order to hide their belief in B and shift the burden of proof to the theist who believes A, your continual avoidance of answering whether you believe B helps illustrates that there are atheists that try to hide whether they believe B is true.
Also as an aside the original argument is like going if there are people that believe B is true, physicalists for example, that if a group of theists labelled themselves a-physicalists and defined the term as meaning a lack of belief in B that the burden of proof is on the physicalists. And that if the physicalists try to label them as theists, that the a-physicalists try to claim that the physicalists were trying to shift the burden of proof in order to make headway in debates. But the physicalists could simply ask them whether they believe A is true. Agnostics would obviously qualify as being a-physicalist given the definition, even if they didn't tend to identify that way, but those for those a-physicalists that did believe in A the burden of proof for their real position is no different. Sure in theory some a-physicalists could keep just repeating that a-physicalism just means a lack of belief in B, and refuse to answer whether they believed in A, why should they unless they were trying to hide their belief in order to shift the burden of proof in order to make headway in debates. That hasn't happened though, it is those that believe B is true that have favoured an identifying in such a way that their belief is hidden.
" You have not indicated whether you believe B is true or not."
Yes I have, more than once. I don't believe any deity exists, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not a belief about the universe. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief?
I can never understand why theist want to try and peddle this dishonest verbiage, do they think lying to try and trick atheists will make their superstition any less imaginary?
"How is it I can predict that you won't point out where you answered whether you believe B is true?"
I have pointed it out several times. As others can attest. I've also answered it here again. You will lie about it AGAIN, c'est la vie. Lying for Jesus is not new, the phenomenon is well documented.
@Sheldon
So I predicted that Sheldon would not point out where he had answered whether he believed B was true and the prediction was correct. How could I do it..... (dramatic drum roll)..... because Sheldon was lying. He hasn't yet answered whether he believed B was true.
Did he do it in the response..... no. No he didn't. He just restated that he didn't believe A is true: "I don't believe any deity exists".
Don't let yourself be fooled into thinking he was thinking that I was asking whether he considered atheism to imply meaning believing B was true. He wasn't thinking that, and I am sure of that because it has been repeatedly been pointed out to him that is not what is being asked. A new reader can follow a few from http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... on-wards if they are in doubt (clearly though if you get to here, don't just loop around again. I hope this warning isn't too late given that there are atheists on the forum).
So imagine the atheists Bob, Alice, and Sheldon. And three propositions:
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
All of them have made clear that they take atheism to mean not believing A is true. And it has been made clear to them, that the following questions are not about what atheism means.
Someone: So Bob, do you believe in B?
Bob: Yes Someone I do.
Someone: And what about C?
Bob: Yes I believe that too.
Someone: What about you Alice?
Alice: Unlike Bob, I don't believe in B or C.
Someone: And what about you Sheldon?
Sheldon: I don't believe in A
Someone: Yes Sheldon, we know, you identify as an atheist, and the definition you favour is one which indicates you don't believe in A. I was asking you about B and C.
Sheldon: I've answered
Someone: I didn't realise what was your answer
Sheldon: I don't believe in A.
Someone: Er... yes we know Sheldon, you are being asked about whether you believe in B or C.
Sheldon: Atheism doesn't mean believing in B or C.
Alice: Sheldon, he isn't asking you about atheism or your thoughts on A, he is asking you whether you believe in B and/or C.
Sheldon: I've answered. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief.
Alice: Sheldon calm down, you're shaking, he is just asking you two simple questions, do you believe B is true, and do you believe C is true.
Sheldon: I have pointed out several times that I have answered. As others can attest. I've also answered here again. You will lie about it AGAIN.
Bob: I think perhaps the kindest thing to do, is stop pressuring Sheldon on it, he is clearly having some problems processing what he is being asked.
Someone: Perhaps you're right. Though personally I think he knows what is being asked but is simply dishonest, and holds you in such contempt that he thinks you will believe him that he has answered.
Bob: Surely no one is that stupid.
Someone: I think Sheldon is special.
I answered, as everyone can see...."I don't believe any deity exists, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not a belief about the universe. "
It''s in the post you just replied to, the one you're now lying about again.
I think what you're doing now is starting to look a lot like spamming as well.
@ Sheldon
Let me rewrite then:
So imagine the atheists Bob, Alice, and Sheldon. And three propositions:
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
All of them have made clear that they take atheism to mean not believing A is true. And it has been made clear to them, that the following questions are not about what atheism means.
Someone: So Bob, do you believe in B?
Bob: Yes Someone I do.
Someone: And what about C?
Bob: Yes I believe that too.
Someone: What about you Alice?
Alice: Unlike Bob, I don't believe in B or C.
Someone: And what about you Sheldon?
Sheldon: I don't believe in A
Someone: Yes Sheldon, we know, you identify as an atheist, and the definition you favour is one which indicates you don't believe in A. I was asking you about B and C.
Sheldon: I've answered
Someone: I didn't realise what was your answer
Sheldon: I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Someone: Er... yes we know Sheldon, you are not being asked about A or atheism, but aboutt whether you believe in B or C.
Sheldon: I have just said, I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Alice: Sheldon, he isn't asking you about atheism or your thoughts on A, he is asking you whether you believe in B and/or C.
Sheldon: I've answered. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief.
Alice: Sheldon calm down, you're shaking, he is just asking you two simple questions, do you believe B is true, and do you believe C is true.
Sheldon: I have pointed out several times that I have answered. As others can attest. I've also answered here again. You will lie about it AGAIN.
Bob: I think perhaps the kindest thing to do, is stop pressuring Sheldon on it, he is clearly having some problems processing what he is being asked.
Someone: Perhaps you're right. Though personally I think he knows what is being asked but is simply dishonest, and holds you in such contempt that he thinks you will believe him that he has answered.
Bob: Surely no one is that stupid.
Someone: I think Sheldon is special.
Do you usually get a bite with this? I'm dubious as most atheists I've met are nowhere near as chippy as most of the theists who come here to vent their frustration at not being able to evidence their beliefs.
Once more then...
"I don't believe any deity exists, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not a belief about the universe. "
Your premises are faulty, as you have been told. Lets try and dumb it down a bit with an analogy, I know theists love analogies.
------------------------------------------
1 Tell me someone do you still molest sheep?
2. Or have you stopped now?
Please tell me if you believe 1 or 2 is true, or if you don't know?
No dodging now, come on lets have an answer.
@Sheldon
Hmm, the dialog already handled that response. It was in it.
@ Sheldon
Let me rewrite then:
So imagine the atheists Bob, Alice, and Sheldon. And three propositions:
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
All of them have made clear that they take atheism to mean not believing A is true. And it has been made clear to them, that the following questions are not about what atheism means.
Someone: So Bob, do you believe in B?
Bob: Yes Someone I do.
Someone: And what about C?
Bob: Yes I believe that too.
Someone: What about you Alice?
Alice: Unlike Bob, I don't believe in B or C.
Someone: And what about you Sheldon?
Sheldon: I don't believe in A
Someone: Yes Sheldon, we know, you identify as an atheist, and the definition you favour is one which indicates you don't believe in A. I was asking you about B and C.
Sheldon: I've answered
Someone: I didn't realise what was your answer
Sheldon: I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Someone: Er... yes we know Sheldon, you are not being asked about A or atheism, but aboutt whether you believe in B or C.
Sheldon: I have just said, I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Alice: Sheldon, he isn't asking you about atheism or your thoughts on A, he is asking you whether you believe in B and/or C.
Sheldon: I've answered. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief.
Alice: Sheldon calm down, you're shaking, he is just asking you two simple questions, do you believe B is true, and do you believe C is true.
Sheldon: I have pointed out several times that I have answered. As others can attest. I've also answered here again. You will lie about it AGAIN.
Bob: I think perhaps the kindest thing to do, is stop pressuring Sheldon on it, he is clearly having some problems processing what he is being asked.
Someone: Perhaps you're right. Though personally I think he knows what is being asked but is simply dishonest, and holds you in such contempt that he thinks you will believe him that he has answered.
Bob: Surely no one is that stupid.
Someone: I think Sheldon is special.
--------------------------
As for your suggestion that the premises were faulty, I had already handled a similar disingenuous attempt by Tin-Man
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... and responded to it
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
With yours the options aren't logically exhaustive. The logical option that I would have selected "(3) I have never molested sheep" was missing. See how easy that was to handle.
So with what you were being asked back when I was using the option approach
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
1) a belief that (A) is true and therefore (B) is false
2) a belief that (B) is true and therefore (A) is false
3) do not hold a belief on whether (A) is true or whether (B) is
What logical option did you think was missing? There were two in which A was not believed in, options (2) and (3).
Also we are now down to a simple statement, and a question of whether you believe it or not. And you keep avoiding, so the format isn't even an option issue.
You are just being asked whether you believe the following statement:
B) Reality is one without any deities.
If the answer is not that you do, then it is that you don't. And surely you know if you do. But you repeatedly refuse to provide an answer to the question.
You dodged my question...
"1 Tell me someone do you still molest sheep?
2. Or have you stopped now?
Please tell me if you believe 1 or 2 is true, or if you don't know?
No dodging now, come on lets have an answer."
I did not dodge it, I dealt with it in the second section of post http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
---
As for your suggestion that the premises were faulty, I had already handled a similar disingenuous attempt by Tin-Man
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... and responded to it
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
With yours the options aren't logically exhaustive. The logical option that I would have selected "(3) I have never molested sheep" was missing. See how easy that was to handle.
So with what you were being asked back when I was using the option approach
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
1) a belief that (A) is true and therefore (B) is false
2) a belief that (B) is true and therefore (A) is false
3) do not hold a belief on whether (A) is true or whether (B) is
What logical option did you think was missing? There were two in which A was not believed in, options (2) and (3).
Also we are now down to a simple statement, and a question of whether you believe it or not. And you keep avoiding, so the format isn't even an option issue.
You are just being asked whether you believe the following statement:
B) Reality is one without any deities.
If the answer is not that you do, then it is that you don't. And surely you know if you do. But you repeatedly provide an answer to the question.[sic]
---
I write [sic] because that sentence should have read "But you repeatedly FAILED to provide an answer to the question."
As can be seen, I answered. You did not provide the logical position I take on the matter.
So point out the logical position on the matter which my options did not provide you.
Also with question B that you keep dodging, it is simply a question of whether you believe it or not. Presumably you are aware of whether you believe it or not.
From the link I provided:
---
So imagine the atheists Bob, Alice, and Sheldon. And three propositions:
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
All of them have made clear that they take atheism to mean not believing A is true. And it has been made clear to them, that the following questions are not about what atheism means.
Someone: So Bob, do you believe in B?
Bob: Yes Someone I do.
Someone: And what about C?
Bob: Yes I believe that too.
Someone: What about you Alice?
Alice: Unlike Bob, I don't believe in B or C.
Someone: And what about you Sheldon?
Sheldon: I don't believe in A
Someone: Yes Sheldon, we know, you identify as an atheist, and the definition you favour is one which indicates you don't believe in A. I was asking you about B and C.
Sheldon: I've answered
Someone: I didn't realise what was your answer
Sheldon: I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Someone: Er... yes we know Sheldon, you are not being asked about A or atheism, but aboutt whether you believe in B or C.
Sheldon: I have just said, I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Alice: Sheldon, he isn't asking you about atheism or your thoughts on A, he is asking you whether you believe in B and/or C.
Sheldon: I've answered. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief.
Alice: Sheldon calm down, you're shaking, he is just asking you two simple questions, do you believe B is true, and do you believe C is true.
Sheldon: I have pointed out several times that I have answered. As others can attest. I've also answered here again. You will lie about it AGAIN.
Bob: I think perhaps the kindest thing to do, is stop pressuring Sheldon on it, he is clearly having some problems processing what he is being asked.
Someone: Perhaps you're right. Though personally I think he knows what is being asked but is simply dishonest, and holds you in such contempt that he thinks you will believe him that he has answered.
Bob: Surely no one is that stupid.
Someone: I think Sheldon is special.
---
Is there anyone on the forum that thinks Sheldon does is not aware of whether he thinks the following statement is true:
"Reality is one without any deities"?
I wasn't asking you about missing choices, are you afraid to say whether you have stopped molesting sheep or not? That's how it looks. it's really simple...
"1 Tell me someone do you still molest sheep?
2. Or have you stopped now?
Now I'll go slowly for you, is 1 true or is 2 true, or do you not know?
I know you're special but this is simple enough. It's not like I'm asking you to evidence your superstitious beliefs, as that was a complete bust anyway.
Tic toc, I have a meal to prepare so I don't have all evening to waste on your duplicitous evasion.
I pointed out the problem. Your questions involve a false dilemma fallacy. And making out it is analogous to what I was asking (which doesn't involve a false dilemma fallacy, I have made it clear from early on that I am assuming the person does not disbelieve in existence) involves a false analogy fallacy. http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
-------
I did not dodge it, I dealt with it in the second section of post http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
---
As for your suggestion that the premises were faulty, I had already handled a similar disingenuous attempt by Tin-Man
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... and responded to it
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
With yours the options aren't logically exhaustive. The logical option that I would have selected "(3) I have never molested sheep" was missing. See how easy that was to handle.
So with what you were being asked back when I was using the option approach
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
1) a belief that (A) is true and therefore (B) is false
2) a belief that (B) is true and therefore (A) is false
3) do not hold a belief on whether (A) is true or whether (B) is
What logical option did you think was missing? There were two in which A was not believed in, options (2) and (3).
Also we are now down to a simple statement, and a question of whether you believe it or not. And you keep avoiding, so the format isn't even an option issue.
You are just being asked whether you believe the following statement:
B) Reality is one without any deities.
If the answer is not that you do, then it is that you don't. And surely you know if you do. But you repeatedly provide an answer to the question.[sic]
---
I write [sic] because that sentence should have read "But you repeatedly FAILED to provide an answer to the question."
As can be seen, I answered. You did not provide the logical position I take on the matter.
So point out the logical position on the matter which my options did not provide you.
Also with question B that you keep dodging, it is simply a question of whether you believe it or not. Presumably you are aware of whether you believe it or not.
From the link I provided:
---
So imagine the atheists Bob, Alice, and Sheldon. And three propositions:
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
All of them have made clear that they take atheism to mean not believing A is true. And it has been made clear to them, that the following questions are not about what atheism means.
Someone: So Bob, do you believe in B?
Bob: Yes Someone I do.
Someone: And what about C?
Bob: Yes I believe that too.
Someone: What about you Alice?
Alice: Unlike Bob, I don't believe in B or C.
Someone: And what about you Sheldon?
Sheldon: I don't believe in A
Someone: Yes Sheldon, we know, you identify as an atheist, and the definition you favour is one which indicates you don't believe in A. I was asking you about B and C.
Sheldon: I've answered
Someone: I didn't realise what was your answer
Sheldon: I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Someone: Er... yes we know Sheldon, you are not being asked about A or atheism, but aboutt whether you believe in B or C.
Sheldon: I have just said, I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Alice: Sheldon, he isn't asking you about atheism or your thoughts on A, he is asking you whether you believe in B and/or C.
Sheldon: I've answered. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief.
Alice: Sheldon calm down, you're shaking, he is just asking you two simple questions, do you believe B is true, and do you believe C is true.
Sheldon: I have pointed out several times that I have answered. As others can attest. I've also answered here again. You will lie about it AGAIN.
Bob: I think perhaps the kindest thing to do, is stop pressuring Sheldon on it, he is clearly having some problems processing what he is being asked.
Someone: Perhaps you're right. Though personally I think he knows what is being asked but is simply dishonest, and holds you in such contempt that he thinks you will believe him that he has answered.
Bob: Surely no one is that stupid.
Someone: I think Sheldon is special.
---
Is there anyone on the forum that thinks Sheldon does is not aware of whether he thinks the following statement is true:
"Reality is one without any deities"?
-------
How about I jump in and give you my choice?
I choose (G).
G) Atheists have no beliefs in any deity or deities. Thus your asking to choose between your arbitrary choices of ABC above are moot.
And G) for Gee I wish Someone would get a better education in the sciences so s/he could understand what has already been discussed.
rmfr
Special would be Someone who can't compare ""I don't believe any deity exists, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not a belief about the universe. "" to his premise in B and see if they are compatible.
Now Someone that stupid would be very special. Almost as stupid as Someone who thinks asking atheists if they believe "the belief that a universe exists without any deities" is true? Is *not a question about how they define their atheism. At least someone has stopped stringing tautologies together and pretending they are scientific evidence for their superstition about magic apples and talking snakes.
Now that was special.
Hey Someone, do you happen to know John 6IX Breezy?
You sound an awful lot like him.
Of course, I already know your answer: No I do not know him nor have I heard of him. Until now.
rmfr
I had the exact same thought, especially since Breezy has stopped posting while someone is trolling the forum.
Consider these two belief statements.
A) I believe @Someone is the most dishonest person in history.
B) I believe @Someone is never dishonest.
Which of these three positions do you hold?
1) a belief that (A) is true and therefore (B) is false
2) a belief that (B) is true and therefore (A) is false
3) I do not know whether to believe A) is true or whether to believe (B) is true.
@Sapporo
As I pointed out in
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
I have dealt with things like this already.
In the case you give, if the beliefs A and B you provide were simply premises they would not be logical complements of each other. So there are other options such as
4) a belief that (A) is false, and not knowing whether to believe (B)
5) a belief that (A) and (B) is false
Another issue is that (B) is ambiguous in that it is not clear whether it means @Someone in the past has never been dishonest, and never will be in the future, or whether it @Someone will never been dishonest in the future. It doesn't make clear whether a Presentist version of time or a Block Universe version is being used for example.
So now back to you
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
Assuming you aren't a person that doesn't believe in existence and thus denies that there is reality which position do you take:
1) a belief that (A) is true and therefore (B) is false
2) a belief that (B) is true and therefore (A) is false
3) do not hold a belief on whether (A) is true or whether (B) is
If you are a person that believes there is no existence and thus believes that there is no reality then there is a fourth position:
4) a belief that (A) is false and that (B) is false.
Anyway, off you go then, point out which logical option you would take, or point out which logical option is missing and you would like to take.
Also I presume you know whether you believe in B or not, and are capable of answering in your reply whether you do or don't.
-------------------------
I noticed that in http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... you were pointing out how the question had changed.
The main change was (3) because of a post @Sheldon had written http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
That post played upon the word "know". When I had written
3) not know whether to believe (A) is true or whether to believe (B) is true.
I had not intended anything other than
3) do not hold a belief on whether (A) is true or whether (B) is
But I was lax in what I had written. As to know something is different to believing it. And Sheldon seized upon it. Indicating he is not as obtuse as he is pretending to be when he keeps avoiding informing the forum whether be believes (B) or not.
Huxley had stated agnostism "simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe". @Sheldon changed the definition and stated it as "the belief that nothing is known or can be known about the nature or existence of something". Notice how Huxley's definition included a criteria for belief, whereas Sheldon's did not. Sheldon then used his knowledge definition to claim: "This does not mean an agnostic does not know whether to believe the claim, you can still believe or disbelieve something even though you take the knowledge position of agnosticism, and again why would I believe something exists if I believe nothing is known or can be known about it?".
It allowed him to claim being an agnostic, but to take position (2) and position (3). Which was emphasised in his point that with (3) written the way it was (2) and (3) weren't mutually exclusive. He could believe reality was without deities, while also claiming he did not know whether he should have believed that. Huxley's definition "a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe" prohibits saying you believe the belief in position (2). So for Sheldon to do what he did, it was important for him to adjust the definition of agnosticism away from Huxley's.
Anyway while I didn't bother at the time pointing out Sheldon's slippery disingenuous response, I did explain that I had been lax in my writing and was re-writing (3). http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...
The rewording takes away that play, as (3) is explicitly about belief, not knowledge, and (2) and (3) become mutually exclusive.
Since then @Sheldon has refused to pick and option, or even indicate whether he believes (B) or not, even though he must know whether he does or not. He keeps writing as though he cannot comprehend what is being asked, but as I point out here, he sometimes relies on quite close readings in his answers.
@Someone has changed:
to:
@ Someone
The choices you offer in this link: http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag....
I know you want Sheldon to answer. However, I am what I refer to as a "militant anti-religionist". I am going to give you my answer.
A) Reality is reality. No deity required. No evidence of ANY deity = no deity exists.
B) See A.
C) I do not know.
How are those answers? Satisfied?
rmfr
@arakish
So from your answers I am taking it that you are saying you believe A is false, and that B is true, and you have no belief as to whether C is true or false. If I have understood you correctly, then that is fine, like Alice and Bob you managed to answer quite simple questions. Have I understood you correctly?
So far from your answers you have avoided my question?
You dodged my question...
"1 Tell me someone do you still molest sheep?
2. Or have you stopped now?
So we can assume you are afraid to reveal the truth, and so are avoiding answering whether you believe 1 or 2 is true, or if you don't know?
Someone is hiding,, come on lets have an answer."
@Someone
As Sapporo has said, you are the most dishonest liar I have yet seen. Quit adding words to my answers. The word "believe" or "belief" DOES NOT BELONG IN MY ANSWERS. My answers are EXACTLY as written. There is no "belief" in any of those answers. Just knowledge and facts.
NO! You still have not even been able to hit the target.
QUIT SAYING I "BELIEVE" WHEN I AM STATING FACTS. No "belief" required.
Considering what Sapporo posted, I would have to say (A) is beyond any shadow of doubt to be true, while (B) is beyond any shadow of doubt to be false.
Admins: I know this can be viewed as bullying, but please take all context into context.
rmfr
Edit: fixed blockquote tag
@arakish
So you think know what you have no evidence for. Even Sheldon does not claim to *know* that no deities exist.
I could accuse you of lying when you claim to know things that you don't but I think it could be that you are simply delusional.
Charitably I shall assume you are more of an embarrassment to the other militant anti-religionists, and that you aren't typical.
Oh and by the way, knowledge is a justifiable true belief. So knowledge would still qualify as a belief. So knowledge would be a subset of beliefs.
Actually knowledge is facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education. Theists claim they hold true beliefs based on faith in an unevidenced bronze age superstition, that doesn't suggest knowledge, but rather delusion.
I'm fairly certain arakish had tired of your bullshit, and wanted to give you the gotcha moment you've been chasing since you got here. You can toddle off to a theists forum now and boast loudly that you bested the heathens and their godless worldview.
I am gratified that every single atheist who responded, told you your loaded dishonest questions were a pathetic and clumsy attempt to reverse the burden of proof by portraying atheism as a belief, and insisting people choose between that belief and theistic belief, or give you the out of saying they didn't know, which you'd have no doubt spun as agnosticism and not atheism.
BIG FUCKING YAWN and bye bye, your posts have lived up to my sadly depressing impression of theists who come to this site with little integrity and a typically closed mind.
Seriously you think that I can boast of anything here, given that the majority of atheists who replied on this forum did not seem to realise that given a statement and its logical complement, knowing that a person lacks a belief in the statement does not inform you whether the person believes in its logical complement. A person might lack a belief in both for example. The one exception seems to be LogicForTW.
Do you understand that indicating that you do not believe in proposition P does not indicate whether you believe in its logical complement ¬P or not, and that if someone asked you if you believe in statement ¬P you have not answered their question if you simply state that you lack a belief in statement P?
The reason I ask is that you have repeatedly been asked about two statements
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
Where B is the logical complement of A. You have repeatedly been asked whether you believe B to be true, and repeatedly claim to have answered by indicating that you lack a belief in A.
But knowing a person lacks a belief in A, does not provide information as to whether they believe in B or not. Any more than knowing a person lacks a belief in B informs you of whether they believe in A or not. So if you were to ask a person whether they believe in A, they are not answering the question by informing you they lack a belief in B. Likewise if you were to ask a person whether they believe in B, they are not answering the question by informing you they lack a belief in A
Yet that is repeatedly what you did, (a reader new to this could just follow the conversation from post http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag...). If I was going to direct theists to this conversation at all, it would be to point to my first response http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheist-world-view?pag... where I ask the question:
---
Why do those on the forum that do take position (2) that prefer the "official" version prefer that version when it hides their belief (position (2))?
---
And to use you as an example of the ridiculous lengths a person that prefers the "official" version will go to hide whether they believe B or not.
I parodied your responses in a fictional conversation:
So imagine the atheists Bob, Alice, and Sheldon. And three propositions:
A) Reality is one with one or more deities.
B) Reality is one without any deities.
C) There is life in this universe on planets other than earth
All of them have made clear that they take atheism to mean not believing A is true. And it has been made clear to them, that the following questions are not about what atheism means.
Someone: So Bob, do you believe in B?
Bob: Yes Someone I do.
Someone: And what about C?
Bob: Yes I believe that too.
Someone: What about you Alice?
Alice: Unlike Bob, I don't believe in B or C.
Someone: And what about you Sheldon?
Sheldon: I don't believe in A
Someone: Yes Sheldon, we know, you identify as an atheist, and the definition you favour is one which indicates you don't believe in A. I was asking you about B and C.
Sheldon: I've answered
Someone: I didn't realise what was your answer
Sheldon: I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Someone: Er... yes we know Sheldon, you are not being asked about A or atheism, but aboutt whether you believe in B or C.
Sheldon: I have just said, I don't believe in A, and that is the absence of one single belief, it is *not* a belief about the universe.
Alice: Sheldon, he isn't asking you about atheism or your thoughts on A, he is asking you whether you believe in B and/or C.
Sheldon: I've answered. Can you really be this dimwitted, or is it just a dishonest attempt to reverse the burden of proof by pretending atheism is a belief.
Alice: Sheldon calm down, you're shaking, he is just asking you two simple questions, do you believe B is true, and do you believe C is true.
Sheldon: I have pointed out several times that I have answered. As others can attest. I've also answered here again. You will lie about it AGAIN.
Bob: I think perhaps the kindest thing to do, is stop pressuring Sheldon on it, he is clearly having some problems processing what he is being asked.
Someone: Perhaps you're right. Though personally I think he knows what is being asked but is simply dishonest, and holds you in such contempt that he thinks you will believe him that he has answered.
Bob: Surely no one is that stupid.
Someone: I think Sheldon is special.
---------------------------------------------------------
Actually knowledge is a justified true belief. Facts are only facts if they are a justified true belief. Information is only information if what person believes they have been informed about is a justified true belief. And skills are only knowledge in the sense of having acquired justified true belief through experience or education.
Lacking a belief that gods exist does not mean you believe reality has no gods, nor does it mean that you don't know that the whole topic is nothing more than metaphysical bullshit.
"Lacking a belief that gods exist does not mean you believe reality has no gods,"
There you go Someone, another poster points out your question was spurious nonsense, and why it is spurious nonsense. I'd bet a years salary you won't ever acknowledge this of course. Which is why more than one poster has called your posts dishonest.
Pages