Reality comes to roost

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CyberLN's picture
Reality comes to roost

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/once-prominent-conversion-therap...

From the article: “Matheson acknowledged his work has hurt some people, but he would not fully renounce “conversion therapy.” Instead, he blamed what he referred to as the “shame-based, homophobic-based system” of the Mormon church in which he was raised.”

It seems this church may have one of the worst records for its current treatment of LBGTQ folks...it, and islam.

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arakish's picture
Ever wonder why I omit the

Ever wonder why I omit the second "m" when talking about Mormonism?

rmfr

EDIT: corrected wording

CyberLN's picture
Well, I don’t think of all

Well, I don’t think of all Mormons that way.

Here’s why...
When one is two feet tall and a person six feet tall (particularly when the taller person is a caregiver) tells you how the world is, you believe them. Indoctrination is a coil that’s really tough, if not impossible, for folks to shuffle off. We hear the struggle here at AR from folks frequently. The folks who are able to break through it to the other side are to be congratulated. I wonder, though, if those who have not yet done so would make the journey because they are (what might be viewed as) verbally beaten up for that indoctrination. I doubt it.

Perhaps it’s more effective to address an idea. Basically, I don’t think of an indoctrinated person as a moron simply because they are indoctrinated.

I dislike religion, not necessarily the religious.

arakish's picture
You are right, I worded it

You are right, I worded it wrong. Sorry.

rmfr

CyberLN's picture
Nice rewording.

Nice rewording.

shiningone's picture
@ CyberLN

@ CyberLN

I'm curious to know more about your thoughts on indoctrination. I'm sure you are aware it is not just a problem confined to religion. There is a far more insidious version of it that most of us here are still under the spell of. Insidious in as much as it is not so obvious and far more thought and resources have been used to promote it.
Indoctrination that has lead us all to believe that our governments in the west are the good guys, who care about us as people and only have our best interests at heart. They continue to invade countries and murder millions of men, women and children all in the name of "democracy"!

Thoughts ?

CyberLN's picture
Start a new string on it then

Start a new string on it then.

arakish's picture
@ shiningone

@ shiningone

Interesting, indeed. As CyberLN said, start a new thread. Even I'd be interested to see others' thoughts.

rmfr

shiningone's picture
yeah, he was right and I have

yeah, he was right and I have.

Algebe's picture
@CyberLN:

@CyberLN:

Mormonism and Islam also have much in common in their treatment of women and girls.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/warren-jeffs-child-bri...

CyberLN's picture
Yes, good point, Algebe. It

Yes, good point, Algebe. It’s so sad that folks, especially those claiming the moral high ground, find it so easy to marginalize others.

Algebe's picture
@CyberLN: It’s so sad that

@CyberLN: It’s so sad that folks, especially those claiming the moral high ground, find it so easy to marginalize others.

It's sad, but not surprising. People like to build up their egos and plaster over their own failings by judging and excluding others. The prominence of this kind of behavior in religious group is further evidence that gods and religions are the creations of men (and occasionally women).

arakish's picture
And Christianity ain't no

And Christianity ain't no different.

I still attend a church sermon here and there. I have yet to see any Christian Church cease their marginalization of "others."

rmfr

Empedocles's picture
@arakish

@arakish

I can't believe atheists can have this conversation of marginalization of others with a straight face. Unbelievable.

arakish's picture
@ Empedocles

@ Empedocles

I only marginalize bigots. And the Religious Absolutists tend to be biggest bigots on Earth.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
Yes those damn atheists with

Yes those damn atheists with their churches and their threats, and their violence, and their all pervasive beliefs, and...oh wait a minute?

LogicFTW's picture
I cant believe christians

I cant believe christians/muslims feel like they get marginalized by atheist.

Actually yeah I can, the theist that screams marginalization definitely has a great capacity for delusion.

David Killens's picture
You aren't worth the time of

You aren't worth the time of day.

CHK-C's picture
@Empedocles

@Empedocles

How do atheists marginalize others?

By saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"?

LOL!!!

AJ777's picture
Is it possible one to be

Is it possible one to be indoctrinated into Atheism just as well as in a particular religious belief?

Tin-Man's picture
@AJ777 Re: "Is it possible

@AJ777 Re: "Is it possible one to be indoctrinated into Atheism just as well as in a particular religious belief?"

*face palm*.... Ugh... Well, nice try, but I'm afraid that remark doesn't quite top your last one. Actually, I would give this one only a close third place. Still, I must say it does have equal "merit". Keep trying, though, big guy. Don't let a little set-back discourage you.... *patting on back in comforting manner*...

CyberLN's picture
Interesting question.

Interesting question.

I can only speak for myself...I raised my kids without any gods. The subject rarely came up. We had far too many other things to talk about. When, on the rare occasion one of them did ask about gods or about the religions of their friends, I let them talk. I answered questions. I let them know what I thought and asked them what their thoughts were and why.

I never told my kids that there are no gods. The lessons I spent time on with them just didn’t include that. There were way too many other more important things to teach them.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ AJ777

@ AJ777

In exactly the same way as I encouraged and indoctrinated my son into: Not stamp collecting, Not playing AFL, Not playing cricket....they are all lifestyles according to you AJ777. Do get a grip.

I encouraged my childrens' choices, we even went to church/temple when any one of them requested. If you bothered to leave your bubble, you should find a goodly percentage of non believing households encourage knowledge and education and questioning....I know that sounds foreign and probably quite disgusting to a good theists cloistered ears, but, there it is.

arakish's picture
My wife and I were the same

My wife and I were the same way with our daughters. We allowed them to make their own choices. In fact, we encouraged them to come to their own conclusions about everything. We even had "open discussion" night once a week. More often if our daughters requested it to discuss "whatsoever" they would wish to discuss.

And as Old Man said (extra emphasis mine),

I encouraged my childrens' choices, we even went to church/temple when any one of them requested. If you bothered to leave your bubble, you should find a goodly percentage of non believing households encourage knowledge and education and questioning....I know that sounds foreign and probably quite disgusting to a good theists cloistered ears, but, there it is.

Of course, good theists would find such foreign due to the teachings of today's Religious Absolutists. They are taught they only need one book for all the knowledge they could ever need. Pathetic actually.

rmfr

EDIT: And it would also help if people of today would their damned noses out of those damned devices and actually talked with their children...

CHK-C's picture
@AJ777,

@AJ777,

Is it possible one to be indoctrinated into Atheism just as well as in a particular religious belief?

I was raised by non-religious parents. They didn't care about religion and never talked about god(s).

So do you think my parents not indoctrinating me with god beliefs is somehow another form of indoctrination?

Algebe's picture
@AJ777: Is it possible one to

@AJ777: Is it possible one to be indoctrinated into Atheism just as well as in a particular religious belief?

I can't speak for others here, but I came to atheism by thinking for myself. Every influential adult in my life was a Christian of some form or other, and I'd never ever heard of atheism.

If anything, I was indoctrinated into atheism by being forced to recite the so-called "Lord's Prayer" every morning at school. Those 13 lines of mumbled gibberish were so patently meaningless for all the hundreds of kids in assembly that I started to wonder why we had to go through it. So thank you Jesus for that.

Empedocles's picture
@Algebe

@Algebe

You're thanking Jesus for the Lord's Prayer? Is that a part of your self education?

Sheldon's picture
It might be smarter for you

It might be smarter for you to show how you think Algebe's point is wrong by explaining how the lord's prayer has significant meaning for the millions of children forced to recite it verbatim when it has never been explained to them, as I shared his experience at school.

Algebe's picture
@Empedocles: You're thanking

@Empedocles: You're thanking Jesus for the Lord's Prayer?

It's called irony. If you look up, you'll see it flying by about 2 feet over your head.

Sheldon's picture
@Empedocles: You're thanking

@Empedocles: You're thanking Jesus for the Lord's Prayer?

Algebe "It's called irony. If you look up, you'll see it flying by about 2 feet over your head."

Over the bridge he lives under, no doubt.

David Killens's picture
@Empedocles

@Empedocles

"You're thanking Jesus for the Lord's Prayer? Is that a part of your self education?"

It is. It is just like drinking something very bitter and unpleasant. One mouthful and you realize it's foul and disgusting.

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