Hi All,
This is my first post here, and the reason I sought out this forum is because I'm struggling with a sense of grief and loss over my admission (to myself) of atheism. I don't know if it's normal or if anyone has had a similar experience and can relate, but I'd like to share my story (as briefly as possible) and then just read any responses or thoughts you all have.
I grew up in a pentecostal (faith healings, visions, demons, angels, speaking in tongues, etc), biblical literalist (bible is the inerrant word of an omni-ad nauseum god), christian church pastor's home. Most of my extended family are either church pastors or missionaries.
I have always been an intellectually curious/honest person. I don't like to deceive myself. I can recall times as early as 7 years old that I asked questions about the brutality of the old testament god and the injustice of hell. I was always given answers like "It's a mystery" or "God's ways are higher than ours" or "at first the bible may seem contradictory, but as you learn to hear god it will begin to make sense as the holy spirit teaches you."
And then came the biggie: Hell. I finally put aside my intellectual concerns as a teenager because the idea of hell terrified me, and I figured, well if NOT being a christian can get me sent to hell, I guess there's no downside to just being one even if it doesn't always (ever?) make sense. Except there was a downside. I spent nearly 25 years trying to talk to and "have a personal relationship with my lord and savior christ jesus" and he didn't ever bother to show up. I sacrificed my intellectual honesty and tried to make that relationship (which you can't call a relationship since there wasn't ever another being involved) work. I spent years seeking religious experiences that were supposed to "revitalize my faith" and "draw me closer to god."
Anyway, how exactly I came to question my faith again and decide to abandon it isn't really important for this post, though I'm happy to share if anyone is interested (amusingly, it was the deconstruction of the hell doctrine using a scriptural/historical argument that began it). The main issue for me now is that even though I'm angry at the wasted time in seeking god, and (silly as it sounds) at the god who didn't exist to show up and have a relationship with me, I feel like I'm in some sort of identity crisis.
At the same time as I am thrilled by the return of my intellectual freedom and ability to ask questions that had always been taboo, I am also feeling an unexpected sense of grief and loss. It's as though god actually was a real person in my head and that my admission of atheism killed him and I'm grieving that loss. I'm also horrified at the thought of 25 years of my life spent anguishing over a lack of relationship with a being that wasn't ever there, especially in light of my "loss" of eternal life along with my faith.
That's pretty much it. There are more details, obviously. I've been boring my poor wife with them for weeks. She's a very practically minded person and doesn't seem to want to dive wholesale into philosophy with me (go figure ;), nor does god's lack of existence really seem to bother her. So now I get to bore you all... lol.
Thanks to anyone who read this far. It helps just to write it all out. I'm devouring books on the subject (especially ones by former Christians and/or ministers if you have specific recommendations).
-Darkk
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DW
One thing you will learn is there is life without a god or jesus. Your life is now free of fearing Hell and the shame of sin. I wish you lots of luck on your solo journey to reason. The road can be bumpy, but stick to the road.
Thank you Xenoview!
Darkk, I’ve never had any gods so am unable to completely understand what you are experiencing. It sounds, though, like the impact felt from any other major life change. And I can relate to that, we all likely can. Perhaps if you practice focusing not on any loss, rather on what you’ve gained by having shuffled off the weight of myth. Without having been where you were, you would not likely be where you are. To put it in elementary terms, you’ve lost your baby teeth and the new ones are growing in. :)
Thanks for that CyberLN. I like the idea of treating it just like any other life shift rather than blowing it up to, ahem, deific proportions. Same for your pain analogy. It's helpful to think of the pain as stemming from growth.
Don't mourn your faith, celebrate that you're now free from it. You were blind but now you can see. You can now go out into the world and he a good person, not because an ancient book tells you to, not out of fear for your immortal soul or as a bargining chip to reward you, but because it is the right thing to do and for no other reason. Wgich to me there is no more noble reason.
The hell doctrine where it start to fall apart from me too, at a young age I remember being told that God was all loving and all forgiving, yet if we didn't believe in him we were gonna burn in eternal agony, and we only got one shot at it. This didn't seem like an all loving, all forgiving God. It seemed like God was petty, egotistical and unforgiving, exactly what I was being preached in Sunday school not to be.
Religion, particularly the Abrahamic religions, are about control. My mum's exboyfriend, who was italian, had a friend who grew up in the vatican, and was so deep that he was forbidden to leave. Eventually he managed to escape and is now living in exile in Britain. Anyway, he asked my mum what she thought religion was, her response was "control". To which he replied "right, now take you wildest dream and that is only the tip of the iceberg".
What amazes me about the religious folk, is that they believe because it is awe inspiring, because they want a sense of wonder, but ironically the real universe is more more awesome and wonderous than anything religion can dream up.
To quote the Bible "the truth shall set you free". How ironic.
Thanks AP! (can I call you AP?) I really appreciate your insight about finding reality more awe inspiring than the fairy tale. Having spent so long steeped in the "wonder of god" and all his powers and abilities etc, it's a mental shift to start examining the real wonders that underlay the universe.
Do you remember what they told you when you were a kid asking about hell? How old were you when you made the connection/decision that the inconsistencies of following a petty god while trying to be a good person didn't make sense?
That's crazy about his experience in the upper echelons of Catholicism. I've heard similar stories from mormons and free masons (is that even a religion?).
Well I was brought uo Church of England (which is the closest you can get to Catholicism without being Catholic). I don't exactly remember what I was taught about hell, I just remember it making no sense and when I asked questions, "if God loves us then why he would not forgive us and not send us to hell?" The answers where never satisfying. "It's God's way" "he does love you, that's why he's trying to save you", blah, blah, blah. I remember being 7 years old, looking up at the sky, telling God that I thoight he didn't exist and even if he did how could he send people to hell if he loved them knowing what he was damning them to. If "you're full of shit" was in my vocabulary then, I would have used it. My point is I remember always think it was bollocks. I actually believed in father Christmas, the Easter bunny and tye tooth fairy longer tyan I believed in God, which is why it amazes when grown adults still believe in God, it's like the is just one more childhood fairy tale that nobody told them the truth about.
It's not your loss of faith that causes grief. It is your loss of identity. "Think about it." Think about all the time and energy you have spent on religion. Think of all your friends. Think of the Church you belong to. Think of the witnessing. Think of all the emotions shared. It is not the silly ideas in religion that are causing the depression you feel. It is a major life change. You are no longer the person you once were. You have moved into a completely new world. It's like moving to a new country and experiencing Culture Shock. "Change your mind and you change the world."
You should expect to experience homesickness, (Wishing you could go back to seeing things the way they were.) Disorientation ( Sneaky thoughts about heaven, hell, and God that creep up on you when you least expect it.) And how do you embrace "non-belief" and "not knowing?" Hyper critical thinking _ (Calling religions stupid or religious people stupid. "This is not atheism." Atheists generally look at religious ideas logically. If an idea was ever convincing, they would be religious.)
Be kind to yourself. Human beings go through stages of development as they mature. The transition from child to teen, the transition from teen to adult, the transition from adult to married adult, the transition from work to retirement, the transition from an old job to a new job, these are all major psycho-social stress points in anyone's live. Giving up your religious identity certainly qualifies as a major life change. Be kind to yourself. Get exercise. Get sleep. Eat well. And just understand that this will be a bit of an emotional ride.
Thanks for this Cognostic. Very helpful!
Hi Cognostic,
Your comments continue to resonate with me. In the past week since posting this, I've vacillated from that feeling of homesickness you mentioned, to simple sadness over a loss, and now I've spent the better part of the last two days furious.
When I look back on 25+ years spent in the self-imposed intellectual darkness that was encouraged by my parents, school (private), and church, it's difficult to decide with whom I'm more incensed. I feel in many ways violated by the indoctrination that (again, however kindly done) infringed on my intellectual development. To say nothing of my right to choose (or not choose) circumcision.
I think in the end, I'm most angry with myself for taking this long to realize it was a crock of shit. It brings me to question my own assumed intelligence. And believe me, I'm not fishing for comfort or compliments here. I seriously have begun to wonder if I'm just not as smart as I thought I was. Or maybe its just unwillingness to buck my family's tradition. Who knows?
At any rate, I wanted to thank you again for your thoughts, and your kindness. This is definitely a roller coaster. :0)
Also, I don't want this to seem all negative. I'm really enjoying the eye-opening experience of watching Aron Ra's youtube series and learning things I had been misinformed about (I had always assumed a young-earth creationist worldview like my parents/church). The sheer volume of complete crap I was told was "absolute truth" is truly terrifying. I feel like I need to start science class over from 4th grade on. Oi!
@Dark Re: Coming around...
Dark! Good to see you again! Most happy to hear you are finally beginning to level out a bit. Sounds like you are learning to come to terms with things rather well. Fantastic. A word of advice, if I may: Do not question your own intelligence. It has nothing to do with how smart you are. In my own humble opinion, the brainwashing of religion (especially when it is started at a very early age) is a virus that slips silently past the intellect like a mist through a screen door. It invades the core of the victim's thought processing center and resides there posing as a benign and helpful aid to one's existence. Yet, all the while it continuously tugs at and manipulates the strings of logic and reason whenever the host begins to threaten its removal with rational doubt and critical thinking. Combine that with the emotional reinforcement from caring and trusted friends and family, and one's level of intelligence pretty much becomes a non-factor in the equation. Hope that helps a little. Looking forward to seeing you around more. Take care.
Hang in there, Dark. I can totally relate to how you feel. It gets easier, though, as you go along. My Mom was a very devout Baptist, and she was the final thin "link" holding me to Christianity (and religion in general). She died earlier this year, and that was when that link was completely severed. May sound silly - and maybe even a little dishonest - but I could never fully let go of religion for fear of disrespecting her, even though I had been harboring doubts pretty much my whole cognizant life. Since her death, however, I have become more and more at peace with myself and my life. Of course, I can't take all the credit for my "recovery", as my incredible wife has been an amazing help in that area. Yes, I still have little feelings of guilt and nagging uncertainties every now and then. Those are natural, I suppose, especially after a practical lifetime of being immersed in the dark waters of religious beliefs. It gets better, though, dude. Chin up. And thanks to all you folks for the fantastic words of support.
Thank you Tin-man! Just voicing this stuff is helping me process it, and that combined with new perspectives to think on is making me very glad I posted.
Same here, Dark. I admit I was a little apprehensive at first about joining the site. Really glad I did now. Have been involved in a couple of other discussions in the forum, and so far they have proven to be very enlightening and beneficial. Hell, they've even been kinda fun, for that matter. *chuckle* It is great to see all the different views and opinions. I have noticed some of the folks on here are pretty damn smart. It is comforting, in a way, knowing I am not such a weirdo for believing the things I believe, as I have encountered many here who share my views. It's almost like being a kid who has been let loose in a candy shop. lol
I first became an atheist at 13 years of age in 1972. Youthful rebellion was all the rage. It felt good and I never have had grief over being an atheist. My grief was over my family that switched from Catholicism to Pentecostalism. I lost them for a while until they toned it down. All is good now! Enjoying a family reunion through the holidays.
Great to hear things are well with your family now, Chimp. Catholic to Pentecostal, eh? Yikes! Can't decide which of those is worse. *shudder*
Oh, by the way, Dark, have you tried watching any of the Atheist Experience episodes on YouTube? Matt Dillahunty and his crew have been a tremendous help to me over the past couple of months since I discovered the series. They do wonders at explaining views and opinions that I have felt for most of my life but have never been able to fully articulate. It is also fascinating hearing the excuses some of the callers make and realizing they are some of the same excuses I once used myself over the years. The difference now is that I truly have to laugh at how childishly ridiculous some of those excuses sound now. I highly recommend checking out the show if you haven't already.
Checking it now... thanks!
Careful. They are addictive to watch. lol
Welcome to the board DarkkWolfe.
I was interested in your mention of speaking in tongues. I've been a linguist all my life, so when I hear recordings of these people it seems pretty obvious to me that their so-called speech is just repetition of random groups of syllables, and that all their phonemes are from English. You don't hear a Japanese 'r' or 'tsu' or a German glottal stop, for example. It's all just bibble babble bobble repeated at supersonic speed to make it sound fluent.
Didn't anyone in your congregation question the reality of this stuff?
Hi Algebe,
Well I know I questioned it. I thought the exact same thing even as a child. Pure babble. I no longer recall the relevant scripture passages, but from what I remember there are two different types of speaking in tongues. One is prophetic in nature and is spoken aloud before the whole group and requires an interpreter. The obvious problem being that since no one understands the mumbo jumbo, any interpretation is equally right (and wrong).
The other type of speaking in tongues was described to me as a "prayer language" something that's just between you and the holy spirit. Its supposed to be a sign of intimacy of your relationship with him.
I was at a teen camp where there were long lines of teenagers waiting to be prayed over to receive the "gift of tongues." This was after a message we heard explaining to us what it was and the point of it all. I remember telling god that it would have to be wholly him doing it through me. I wasn't going to make up any words to help him out (something most of these poor adolescents seemed to be doing just to end the pressure cooker that was standing there in line!). I never did speak in tongues. I spent most of my later years seeking a relationship with god feeling inadequate (by Christian standards) for never having the "gift."
Bear in mind that growing up in the pastors home in the denomination I did (think peace, love, buddy jesus, hippie church, but without the sex or drugs) I was indoctrinated in the "reality" of all these rituals from infancy. My parents were (are) 100% sold on all of it. I think that's why no one questions any of it. You believe something that strongly and your brain practically trips over itself to supply the needed information (however erroneous) to fill in the logical gaps.
Sorry I got a bit off track, but I think I answered your question. Let me know if I didn't. ;0)
Thanks DarkkWolfe.
I didn't realize that there were different types of speaking in tongues. When I first saw it I was reminded of my childhood in England in the 1950s. I could pick up dozens of different languages on our shortwave radio set, and I used to imitate the sounds. Small children are really good at picking up sounds and imitating them, so I'm pretty sure my attempts were more realistic than the church version.
The real giveaway with the church stuff is the lack of meaningful intonation. Real languages have patterns of stresses and tones that signal things like questions. The "speaking in tongues comes out flat and chaotic. If I ever hear them speaking Khoisan (Bushman) click languages or even classical Latin I might take notice.
If someone told you there was a million dollars at the end of a long road and obstacle course, just for you, and you found out that is wasn't true... You may feel like you lost a million dollars, but did you really?
Just think of all the other interesting roads you can go down now, now that you don't have to focus on the carrot or fear the stick. What a wonderful world indeed.
Hi Aposteriori,
Great points. It's such a strange feeling. Totally illogical. Very much like you said: a prize I never could have had, but believed I could and so worked hard to get, only to have it taken.
Not just my eternity in heaven either. All the family and friends that have died over the years that is always kinda believed I'd see again. It's a bit like grieving for their loss over again. Not that anyone actually knows what is or isn't after death, I suppose. But if you believe consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, an afterlife doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense.
Life feels so much more... important this way. So much more serious. I remember many years spent fruitlessly seeking to connect with god where I just wished I could die and go to heaven so all this depressing striving could be over. So now that my life is wholly my own, with no god I'm beholden to... it's just weird. Most days weird and wonderful. But 25 years spent believing that your doubts about Christianity came from being sinful or weak in faith or unbelieving or just stubborn... it's hard to shake. I used to wonder why no one else questioned the things I did. I wished I'd had an atheist friend at the time. Could have saved myself much wasted time.
Anyway, rambling, thanks for your comments! Glad to be here.
The next part of your journey might be, as it is for many others, one of discovery... You might feel the need to learn about religion and the arguments for and against. You will likely unfold layer after layer of absurdity to the point where you can hardly believe that you ever believed it... And how so many still do. When you get to that point, when the absurdity is so many layers deep, you might feel like learning how to challenge the faith of others.
And that feels soo good.
I love counter apologetics and philosophical debate so much I can't get enough. But for many more reasons than just challenging other's beliefs.
This definitely feels like where I'm at. I am reading God is Not Great right now and every time he says something bizarre about what christians believe (some of which I didn't even realize) I want to go look it up and read the Christian counter argument to figure out what they are thinking! These are people I respected growing up. Many of them I know to be sincere and honest and kind. I don't get how they can support such a bizarre, violent, and hypocritical faith.
So it's study study study for me right now. :) I hope to get to the point where I can counter all of the common arguments for faith and maybe even debate my family someday. Politely.
In that category I believe I can be of assistance. Just ask.
Dang, Apost, that is a fantastic view. Very eloquently put. Bravo!
Hey, Dark, what do you think of the AE show? Hope it helps you. If you like to laugh, there are a couple of other video series on YouTube I really enjoy that you might want to try. They are "Dark Matter" and "Non Stamp Collector". Both are cartoon skits, and some of them are downright hilarious. Granted, the "Dark Matter" ones can sometimes be a bit cruder than they really need to be, but they are still good for a chuckle or two.
Thanks Tin-man!
I liked it. I heard one caller arguing from the young earth creationist perspective. Using the same references I used to use to make that same argument. I don't know that it was funny to me, mostly sad to hear someone similarly indoctrinated.
I remember my dad always teaching me how scientists are just as religious as christians. They just put their faith in their theories and had to take as many leaps as christians did in order to arrive at the theory of evolution.
To this day I don't quite understand how someone who seems as intelligent as my father in so many ways can be so bat shit crazy in others.
Before there was a real god dwelling in my psyche that was profound enough (years of brainwashing) to possess me, I dismissed it. I was around 8 years old when the questions started coming and 10 when I realized I couldn't abide the BS. Before I reached my teens my parents knew I did not embrace their sensibilities but they hauled me off to church for appearances sake. I cooperated outwardly. I cooperated through all the religious training despite rebellious grumblings in opposition. My mother would not be swayed from her self-contrived duty to fulfill her notions of mothering.
Regarding hell, that aspect alone got me on a fast ride to atheism. Even at that age I knew it was pure crap. I mean, if you had doubts about god you'd rot in hell? Really? Okay, the con was on. It was one of the major points I (later) laid into my parents over that I thought they were conned into believing.
Anyway, my loss was time and pride that do not relate to your loss of faith in any manner. Still, I do know some sense of it by the change in my parents towards me when I challenged their faith, and the disconnect between us when discussions later in life did not allow logic to support their stances. They fell silent. It was a victory and a loss, but theism needs to be defeated on all fronts.
Humanity has no coherency for existence that theology doesn't pretend to supply. Knowing that, believing or disbelieving really are moot points. It's not that I or anyone else disbelieve the theological explanation. It's more a matter of not being able to believe it. Furthermore, blame for its propagation must be levied upon all theists for deceiving their children that theism is a truth and not a doctrine alone. This was my firm stance against my own parents, and my apologist wife where my 2 sons are concerned. Minimally, children need to be presented with the distinctions between doctrine and fact, and then given over to their own sensibilities for their life's choice. I did that with my sons. Both are now stoic, self-decided atheists who no more think about gods or religions that they do the man in the moon.
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