I don't want this. I am so scared of going back there, I'll die, I really will, but I'm trying to learn and research and all my searches take me to Christian sites and apologetics and i can't argue, I don't know the words. How do we explain the claims of the resaurection? Most scholars agree with a historical Jesus even if they are secular so how come i can't find a secular explanation for the supposed resaurection that can reassure me?
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@Mikhael: How do we explain the claims of the resaurection?
Let's assume that a man named Jesus was crucified around 30CE. Crucifixion could take days to kill the victim, especially in the case of a strong young man. Yet according to Mark, Jesus died and was taken down after just six hours.
Many Jews were crucified after the siege of Jerusalem in 70CE. Josephus saw three of his friends on crosses and asked the Roman general, Titus, to spare them. Titus agreed, and the three were taken down and given medical treatment. One survived.
So if Jesus was crucified and was later seen alive, the rational explanation is that he was still alive when taken down. And he wouldn't have had holes in his hands. The nails were driven between the wrist bones because the hands aren't strong enough to support the weight.
With crucifixion, death resulted from asphyxiation. When you're hanging from your arms, you can't work your chest muscles to inhale. To breathe, you have raise your body by pushing down against the spike through your feet or ankles. That's why crucifixion was such a horrible method of execution. If the Romans had wanted to kill Jesus quickly, they wouldn't have stabbed him in the right side with a spear. They'd have smashed his legs with a club so he couldn't raise himself up to grab a few breaths.
I'd be more impressed if Jesus had been resurrected after being beheaded.
I guess o just always assumed that Jesus was tortured so bad on the cross he died from all his wounds...but I guess even if there was a historical Jesus his tortured crucifixion could have been highly dramatized?
Idk, I'm just. I feel like there's suddenly so much to process about the story. I do take to the historical Jesus route, as most biblical scholars seem to, and I know most attest he was crucified and isn't there new evidence that the mind of crucifiction he had was not unheard of?
Why would we need to explain someone's mythology?
Perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel obliged to explain the mythology of the Jesus, but not the mythology of King Arthur and Excalibur?
Because ...because I feel like this is suppose to have so much credibility than others. Because other people in early history knew of Jesus. Because his disciples went out and preached something. Because I don't understand how to tell what we know happened from history and what was only in their myths. I don't know if we have outside sources about the disciples early ministry, I don't know if we have evidence that Jesus was buried or whatever. What I know is I am just a very scared and not very mentally well person right now who feels very stupid for how little I know and very frustrated because this feels so important to me and I envy those who have reached a point of being last it
There isn't a single contemporary source for Jesus. What we have is stories written by people who never met Jesus.
I know, I know this. I guess I look at all these really intelligent people with PhDs and degrees who have studied the bible and history and archaeology for longer than I've been alive and I get books at work all the time talking about how the resaurection is an undeniable fact, and then I find so little on our side refuting it.
How should someone refute a myth? There really isn't any way, or reason to.
I guess it just gets to me how solidly people devote their whole lives to saying it isn't one?
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/april/why-you-can-believe-in-the-re...
Like I know all the main arguments like swoon theory and empty tomb, and Christians so easily refute those. But I guess their evidence also presupposes the inerrancy of the bible? Like...sure 500 people saw him. Bitch, who?!
But then what is all this about the earthquakes and the darkness that supposedly occurred and people recorded? I mean I guess there's no proof they happened during his death right? Since the gospels were written later they could have taken known events from the time and added them to the crucifixion story? Like do Tallos and Phlegon specifically say exactly when these happen? I keep trying to read stuff but I'm just not understanding and it's 330 am and I feel like I'm dying
@Michael: "How do we explain the claims of the Resurrection?"
We Don't. What is it you are not seeing. We do not EXPLAIN any of the stupid claims made by the Bible. The Bible is the claim, NOT THE EVIDENCE. How are you going to explain the blue universe creating bunny? YOU DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN IT. IT IS UP TO THE PERSON MAKING THE CLAIM TO EXPLAIN IT.
The mere fact that most theologians have downgraded the magical Christ being to just being as just being an "HISTORICAL MAN CALLED JESUS" destroys the Christian faith as it once was and moves us in a whole new direction.
I give you a man named Jesus. I give you the crucifixion. Please demonstrate "Son of God" greater than any other Son of God at his time. During the time of Paul's writings, all Christians were Son's of God. Please demonstrate the walking dead. Please demonstrate the witnesses. Please demonstrate the earth going dark. Please demonstrate the magical earthquake. Please demonstrate a dead Jesus with holes in his hands when the Romans used a nail through the wrists. Please demonstrate the ascension. Please demonstrate water to wine that is not a simple magic trick performed by all the priests of Jesus's era. Please demonstrate walking on water. Please demonstrate healing a blind person beyond an ignorantly performed evangelic tent revival trick. THE BIBLE IS THE CLAIM - NOT THE EVIDENCE.
I cannot, of course I cannot, there's no evidence for any of it, save, maybe, the talk of the darkness sky and the earthquakes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_darkness
But without dates, without a supposed crucifixition date, it is very plausible, isn't it, that the authors of Mathew mark and luke took a local anomaly, if one happened, and claimed happened on the day of the crucifixion ?
@Mikhael: "There you go. You got your answer." Every single frigging time a theist opens their mouth, it's the same frigging shit! It's the easiest thing in the world to remember. THEY ARE THE ONES MAKING THE CLAIMS. THEY ARE THE ONES WITH THE BURDEN OF PROOF. THE BIBLE IS A BOOK OF CLAIMS WITH NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER.
God, can it really be so simple ?? That the whole thing is any other polutheisric tribe, their god evolving, their stories just parcels and cultural issues? I'm not mb vut im no scholar. How can there be people who make their whole lives the study of the bible and it's history and remain Christian? Thoug I guess, some dont...
RE: How can there be people who make their whole lives the study of the bible and it's history and remain Christian?
In my opinion. People don't want to be alone, they want to feel loved, and they are afraid of death. Nothing can meet all those needs like a fantasy friend who you get to spend time with after you die.
I suppose that makes sense. Ugh. And already my manic brain is jumping to new shit, wondering if the muddy waters at Lourdes turnning clear is just physics or spmerhing unexplaoned because hey i dont know how digging a spring words why am I /like this/
Tallos? Phlegon? Are you saying that Phlegon wrote some eye witness testimony? Do remember that Phlegon was SECOND century CE?
Not one writer of the period that the Jesus figure was allegedly crucified wrote ONE WORD about anything unusual at the time? Not. one. word.
Let that sink in. Say it again. NOT.ONE. WORD. of contemporary evidence.
Say it as many times as you need.
Not one word. I do understand on some level, I promise I'm not just trying to be contrary or annoying. I know I probably sound stupid or dense, please excuse it, like many I have some severe religious trauma, especially as a queer person. I guess it just terrifies me because i always go back to, if I become convinced that its all real, i lose everything.
How can it be so simple? Shy does "miracle nobody wrote about or we conveniently lost 'll the evidence for from a book that can't keep its own story straight" make more sense than "religious fanaticism that took on a life of its own and has stories told about it in retrospect" ?
I am going to make the new testament very simple for you Mikhail, you can do the research. It is all available to you if you are a genuine seeker for historical fact: the gospels are all individual novels based on stories dating from some 30 years before their writing. They were then altered, interpolated, redacted and and changed to suit the prevailing sect until the present time. All of that is evidenced if you choose to chuck your paranoia into the bin and channel your energy to searching the facts.
You have a brain young man, now fucking use it on something less fucking useless than panic and self pity.
IF you need help or advice on where to start with a reading list just pm me.
Yes, it is that simple.
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People is dumb.
By that I mean we all see people do stupid stuff in our daily lives, including ourselves. So any argument that relies on the assumption that people act rationally, is dubious at best.
As Cog said: "the Bible is the claim, NOT THE EVIDENCE."
Mikhael I suggest you take a moment and read from this Wiki article on resurrection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection
"Resurrection or anastasis is the concept of coming back to life after death. In a number of ancient religions, a dying-and-rising god is a deity which dies and resurrects."
There is a very long list of mythical figures that died doing some heroic act and were resurrected, and went on to some heavenly place. Sound familiar? Yup, the jesus story was just a repeat of older stories from other cultures. So was the tale of the great flood and virgin birth.
Second part .....
Ask yourself ... if someone obviously on the wrong side of the rulers is publicly executed, do you think their body would be buried in a very expensive tomb? And if it was donated, do you understand that back in those days anyone being openly sympathetic to an executed criminal that preached sedition would likely have the same fate the next day? The Romans ruled by brute force and instant retaliation on anyone opposing their rule.
Use your head, think things through.