So a couple months ago my mother told me something I never expected to hear from her lips. I was not surprised when she told me she felt like a failure as a parent, since many parents feel they could have done better, hindsight being 20/20 and not getting a manual from the get-go. I told her I thought she did many things right as a parent. But I then asked her, "If you had been more of a success, what do you think would be different?" The answer? She said, "You would believe in god." She said she is worried that I'm going to hell. Ha! Since I don't believe in her god, I am exempt! But anyway...
I have thought this over and over, coming to the conclusion that taking offense and feeling indignant is completely an ego based response, and meaningless, and that sympathy for her misguidance is more appropriate. But the indignation and other thoughts continue to creep in, and I've been wanting to run them by someone, to get an objective viewpoint. The thoughts include the following:
This is a display of unhealthy boundaries--to think that she should have had any say over what I believe, and that her success or failure, albeit partial, depended on that. To have indoctrinated me would have been brainwashing but of course that is not how she'd see it. It is an insult to my intelligence to insinuate that I am not able to not come to the right conclusion for myself. Her fantasies of having a particular type of daughter did not materialize. But if she does not approve, how am I to spend time with her except shallowly? Not that I want her approval at all. But in the same situation with most other people, I would normally write them off and just not make an effort to talk to them, seeing the chasm of difference between us and sensing the self-righteousness, and I don't want to do that here.
I have been struggling with how to have a relationship with her. We have always had a hot and cold relationship. We're very different and yet over the years we've managed to get along from time to time. Sometimes quite well, and others not well at all.
But the difference now is that I never knew that she placed a value on whether or not I believed in her god, for her sake. And I feel it's disingenuous to worry that someone else is going to your imaginary pit of fire for eternity. Coincidentally even she does not believe she is going to heaven. She admitted that although she believes in god and lives according to the bible because she thinks it's the right way to live, she doesn't believe she's a chosen one and does not believe he'll pick her up for the apocalypse. And why?--one reason is that she has been divorced, and remarried! Oh, what a sinner!
So indulge me? What is your response to a parent saying to their free-thinking offspring that they partially failed as a parent because the offspring thought for themselves and escaped indoctrination? How to move forward with this this relationship? Because I certainly do want to have a relationship, I'm just not sure from what angle to approach it while feeling the indignation and the insult (failure on my part, I know), as much as I try to logically put it out of my mind and as much as I know that reaction is useless. I suspect I am going to hear that I am simply overreacting here.
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@Weber1111
Your mother sounds like both of my parents. Dogmatic Catholics, my mother 'got upset' because her children are all atheists. Dad got angry, and stayed angry. I refused to wear that shit. As children we are not responsible for our parents' emotions. As adults, we are not responsible for the feelings of others.
Your mother is being very manipulative, trying to make you accept responsible for her feelings and make you feel guilty. Unlikely that she has any insight into her behaviour. Confronting her will probably just result in her becoming upset.
She probably won't change. Mine never did , and she lived to be 92.
I don't think you're over reacting .Willing to bet your mother has been pulling that stunt for most of your life. I tried to confront my mother about her emotional blackmail, more than once.
What I did;'about 30 years ago (whenI was 40-ish) I told mum that she could choose to be upset about my atheism if she wanted. But that I would not discuss the topic with her again. That if she brought it up, I'd leave. She only did it once more. I left.
We eventually formed a quite close relationship by ignoring that particular elephant in the room.
My mother failed in part as a parent because her love was conditional. That's what I'm getting from your post
I'll be thrilled if I'm wrong about my interpretation. .
Oh, in case it's not clear ; I loved my mother dearly, and was devastated when she died in April of this year. I finally realised that she had far fewer, less egregious faults than I.
I read somewhere that we become adults when we learn to forgive our parent.
That sounds pretty underhanded to me!
One can not, not communicate. All communication is relationship defining. Think about the psychological position of the person making the comment and not just the words. "If you only believed in God, I would be a better parent." Or.. "Because you do not believe in god, I am a bad person." Your initial assertion is spot on; "This is a display of unhealthy boundaries-" SO LETS MAKE THE BOUNDARIES CLEAR. MOM IS ENTITLED TO HER BELIEF JUST AS YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOURS.
The overt communication is clear "You are responsible for making me (mom) a bad parent." And the comment puts you in a pathological double bind. " If you tell her, I am not responsible for your delusion. Religiosity is not a measure of a good person by any means." If you disagree with her statement, then you don't "understand" or are "uncaring." And it only proves that she is a bad parent. If she had been a better parent you would agree with her.
If you remain the same, you are forced to deal with the fact that she has claimed you are responsible for her being a bad parent. (This is the position you have been placed in and it feels like shit! The BOUNDARY is blurred, You have been made responsible for your adult mother's success or failure in this world.) BULLSHIT!
If you accept responsibility and admit that you are a bad child who is responsible for your mother's failure, you will begin believing in God and only then will your mother have succeeded at being a good mother. She becomes a good parent by virtue of the fact that you recognize she was a bad parent and then change your behavior. THERE IS A SOLUTION.
READY FOR THIS: "Agree with your mother." NOT WITH THE OVERT COMMENT BUT WITH THE PSYCHOLOGICAL POSITION. MOM IS A WHOLE AND COMPLETE HUMAN BEING WHO IS CAPABLE OF DOING AND BELIEVING AS SHE LIKES. YOU ARE NO MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR HER THAN SHE IS FOR YOU. PUT THE BOUNDARIES BACK IN PLACE.
"You know mom, I thought a lot about this and I have decided you are right. I can see how you think you are a bad person because of way your religion affects your life. According to your belief, you are a bad parent. I am truly sorry you think that way but I understand you have to because of your religious views. You just have no choice. I want you to know that I do not blame you for being a bad parent. I THINK you did a great job raising me. I am intelligent and happy with my life and who I am as a person. I want to also mention that I am a good daughter. I would never tell you that you were a bad parent even though I understand that is what you believe. I hope you can see the success you have been some day.
*IN SHORT: Your mother's view is valid for her. She believes it NOT YOU! (BOUNDARY IN PLACE) She has a right to her opinion whether you like it or not. You don't have to share it; however, you can understand it. You know for a fact that it is her religious ideology speaking. Her world view is her stuff, NOT YOURS. You tell her that you love her even though she thinks she is a horrible parent because you have never really seen her that way. (YOU JUST DON'T SHARE HER POINT OF VIEW BUT YOU DO UNDERSTAND HOW SHE HOLDS IT.) You give her what is hers and you keep what is yours. You could even assert something like "I forgive you for thinking you are a bad parent (NOTE: NOT FOR "BEING A BAD PARENT." YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THE OVERT COMMENT. YOU AGREE WITH YOUR MOTHER'S ABILITY/RIGHT TO THINK WHAT SHE WANTS TO THINK.)
"It's okay mom. I forgive you for THINKING YOU ARE such a bad parent. I love you anyway. I have never thought of you that way. I hope some day you will change your mind and see how happy I am." Double Down with a "REFRAME" of what it means to be a good parent. "I always thought you were a good parent because I am so happy with the person I have become. I am so sad you feel the way you do. I wish you were happy like me."
This stuff comes out much better in reality than it does in writing. The thing to have clearly in your mind are THE BOUNDARIES. Your mom's thoughts, opinions, happiness, success or failure. IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. It is unfortunate that she believes it is. You and I both know this is a result of her religious views. SHE IS ENTITLED TO THEM. Give them to her. She is not going to change her views and here comes the most important part of the entire post - YOU ARE NOT CHANGING YOUR VIEWS EITHER. THE BOUNDARY IS SECURELY IN PLACE. YOU HAVE YOUR LIFE AND YOUR VIEWS AND I HAVE MINE. I LOVE YOU REGARDLESS OF YOUR VIEWS,
Remember. Religious people have doubled down and thrown children from their homes or even done worse when their children do not agree with their views. If this is the worst that has happened to you, you are actually very lucky. I know it is upsetting, but you are dealing directly with the CRAP we call religion. You are dealing directly with the reason many of us are ATHEIST. We know this shit happens. I wish you all the success in the world dealing with the issue. It sucks to have a mom that thinks the way she thinks but you are not responsible for her delusions. Religion is not a measure of a good person by any standard. I wish you success and happiness.
So many nuggets of wisdom in your reply, I will re-read it several times. The thing that stands out most initially is how you emphasized that there are in fact boundaries, and I need to know mine and respect hers equally. Approaching the relationship that way seems easier--being humble and self-assured, and accepting that her lifelong commitment to her beliefs are set, as well as mine are set. Loving her and accepting her the way she is.
Maybe others understand when I say that each time a parent does something to show their humanness it can be unsettling. In this case, for some reason I think I expect her to be more logical than she is about her beliefs, and that expectation is unrealistic. She is entitled to her beliefs, which have been securely in place her entire life--67 years--and I must appreciate that and her uniqueness and must truly embrace that in order to accept her and show her love.
More replies to your feedback as I re-read and absorb. But I wanted to express my gratitude for this much thus far. THANK YOU
@Weber: Sounds like you have grasped the basics. I wish you success. Just as you have every right to be who you are and think and respond to life in a way you see as best, so does your mom. It is unfortunate that she sees herself as a failure because you do not believe in a god. That is a perception you surely do not share. But it is also one, about which, you have no control over. It is one of the reasons you are an atheist. You can directly see and experience the harm religious beliefs bring to individuals and their families. You have an amazing first hand insight into this problem. While it is unfortunate in some ways, it will afford you a great amount of understanding in other ways. Good luck to you and yours.
I can definitely identify with the frustration of having a hot and cold relationship with your mom. I had a similar conversation with my mom about a year ago. She cried a lot.
I see commenters above calling it emotional blackmail or manipulation, and while that's probably a factor, I don't think that was the core cause in my case. My mom genuinely believes I'm going to hell. This isn't about being judgmental. In her mind, I'm going to be burning, literally, in actual fire for eternity. She's terrified and regrets that her parenting wasn't able to keep me from having to suffer unimaginable pain.
My side of the conversation went something like, "I know that has to be so scary for you, and I love you. I want you to know that even though I don't believe in God, you've done such a great job of teaching me how to be a grounded, kind and successful person. Thank you for all of your hard work in raising me." That conversation was a positive turning point for our relationship.
On the other hand, drawing boundaries with her in other ways/areas has been so important. So if you feel like she's just trying to manipulate you, maybe this is a time to draw a hard boundary. Or maybe she's just super worried and sad that you will suffer. Likely, it's somewhere in between.
@SJ
" My mom genuinely believes I'm going to hell. This isn't about being judgmental. In her mind, I'm going to be burning, literally, in actual fire for eternity. "
This is one of my points whenever I discuss this topic with someone who believes as your mother does. I point out that heaven is supposed to be perfect. Therefore, assuming she is in heaven and you are in hell, how could that possibly be perfection to her? I can only see these as answers:
1. God gives her his mindset and she is no longer concerned about your agony (problem - God has fundamentally changed her. not to mention made her evil like him)
2. God makes her forget you ever existed (problem - God is a liar)
There may be other possibilities, but none of them add up to perfection.
I would only like to add that from reading your concerns for your mother and your relationship with her, it appears to me she did a great job raising a considerate human being. She's done a sterling job.
Another Thought comes to me off the heels of Greenseeds remarks,
"What your mother has told you is that you are a failure." "If only you believed in God, then you would be a success in my eyes and I would be a success too."
WOW! "I feel like a failure because you do not believe in God." Hidden in that message is "You are a failure because you do not believe in God." After all, if you believed in god your mom would be a success and you would then obviously be a success in her eyes.
It could actually be appropriate to confront her with her unspoken claim. "Wow, I never knew you thought I was a failure for not believing in god. I am truly sorry you feel that way. I thought you did a fine job parenting and I like who I am as a person. It's truly sad to me that I am not enough for you the way I am.
THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A BIT MORE CONFRONTATIONAL. IT'S STILL A PART OF THE META MESSAGE YOUR MOM IS DELIVERING TO YOU. BRING IT OUT IN THE OPEN AND ALLOW HER TO HAVE HER OWN OPINIONS. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SHARE THEM. YOU CAN CERTAINLY TELL HERE HOW SAD YOU ARE THAT SHE HOLDS SUCH OPINIONS.
Hi Cognostic, you've touched on another thought I've carried with me since her comment--the implication that I'm a failure if she feels she failed.
And I'm ok with confrontation, when presented as you describe. One thing I asked my mother was, "Don't you think I'm smart enough to come to the right conclusion for myself? Her answer was, "I think you're smart." She could not repeat the last part, "...to come to the right conclusion for yourself," so I repeated the question in entirety a couple more times, emphasizing the last part, and she could not repeat that last part. She could only say, '"Yes, I think you're smart, but these are just my beliefs."
I guess as many of us discover when discussing these things with believers, it goes in circles. We come to a point of embracing logic, and they don't completely (IMO), and so it's frustrating on the end of the free-thinker to see that others stray from the logic and just turn their head.
I will have another talk with my mother when the time is right and in the meantime I will take the time to make sure I've thought everything through and decided how to say things so that they are humble yet to the point, and just again see what she says. As you mentioned in your original reply, I will have to accept the boundaries at differences in belief and sovereignty over our own brains. It makes me kind of sad, because I feel this issue keeps a wedge between us, but that may just be my stubbornness. I reason that what's the point of revealing myself to her the way one would with a close friend, if she can't value me completely? So I throw away the idea completely and decide that I can only have a shallow relationship with her, and view her with sympathy and distance when it comes to this part. I think I expect/want more than what is possible, and that is accepting a sort of loss in terms of the wish to be close to my mother.
@Weber1111: Remember, You are the one that changed, not her. Be the person you are but do not be afraid to set clear boundaries. That is part of being our own person.
When being confrontational it is sometimes useful to disqualify your comments. Instead of "I'm sorry you see me as a failure" you can say, "I'm sorry your church, faith or religion, see me as a failure." She believes it but can not say it and so it can be brought out into the open by pretending it is her belief, her faith, her religion, her Church and not really her.
Disqualifications of "Time, Place, Person, Self,
Time: Remember when? Not here and now but back then or in the future.
Place: Imagine we are in heaven..... Imagine dinner at Bob's house.... I had the weirdest dream last night.
Person: I'm sorry. Did I say that out loud? I really wasn't talking to you.
Self: It's not me saying it. This is what Bart Eherman said.
Finally, keep in mind that your mother loves you. She is being manipulative because she wants what is best for you. The problem is, you are an adult now and you get to choose what is best for you, not her.
I like what Matt Dilahaunty said to his parents. *If you have not watched the Atheist Experience on YouTube, I recommend it.* Matt's words to his parents were something to the effect, "If you believe in your god and you believe your god has the power to change people then go pray to your god so that he will change me." Shift the problem from between you and her to between her and her god. "If your god was doing his job, I would be a believer."
Good luck to you. There really are no easy answers and what works today will not work tomorrow. Just stay open to new ideas and don't let the nay nays get you down.
Cheers.
@Weber
Howdy. Welcome to the AR. You have certainly arrived at the right place for good advice. I would love to give you some great advice myself, but it seems Cog and others have already beat me to it.... *chuckle*... Oh, well. At least I can give you a warm welcome and agree with Grin that your mother seems to have done a great job in raising an intelligent and considerate daughter. Here is to wishing you the best in coming to an agreeable solution to your problem... *raising a glass in toast*...
@ Weber
Cog has got it down....have a drink. Re read his stuff. THINK. have breakfast, invite your Mom to lunch, give her a printout of Cog's genuine talk.
Talk to her.
My mum could not take what I was as a human and she died before my rebellion was complete. Meh. Some you win...
@Webber1111
When it comes to close family I have that is religious, if they are on the older side, I just tell them what they want to hear. I do not lie, I simply tell them what they want to hear.
For me it is my dad, He is now north of 70. He is not going to change his mind, and while my dad is not fragile, I feel it needless to upset him. We argued when we were both younger, and it put some distance between us.
Later, I just said things like: I do not know if there is a god or not. If it is important to you dad, it is important to me.
I let him talk about it and humour him, I listen and do not challenge, as I know I will not change his mind, and it will make my dad happier if he thinks I listen to him on something he considers very important.
I know where I stand, I know without actual evidence I will remain unconvinced of any god idea. And I know my dad will not provide any actual evidence.
I "humour him," I let him say his piece, then I move on. It is easier for me though, as I do not have kids for him to try and "intervene" on. I always feel when you have kids is when it gets hard, as an atheist, frequently we want to raise our kids to have critical thinking skills and to be highly skeptical of anything that is unevidenced. Also I must point out I do not live with my dad, that is when it gets harder, if you live full time with someone that think very differently than yourself.
Well I'm glad that so many have a good relationship with their family; I don't. I really don't know what I'd do in that situation. Probably would start with a laughing fit.
Hi Nyarlathetep. Although I don't recall ever laughing at my mother for her beliefs, she says I have, accompanied with the statement, "You still believe that stuff?!" Her feelings get hurt very easily, and to be fair that kind of statement is insulting. But, like you, I do find it laughable. Except that she's obviously taken a position of judgement and self-righteousness and that is hard for me to laugh at and just live with.
Yeah, that sounds familiar; but in my case it was with a friend, not a family member. I had a very close friend, and he was somewhat of a mentor to me, I learned so much from him, he was the smartest person I've ever known.
He was drawn into an extreme evangelical church when I was a young man. After numerous attempts to get me to attend the church, I finally told him I was an atheist. He responded that "he couldn't be friends with someone who thought he was crazy". I never told him I thought he was crazy, but my protests had no effect and that was the last time he spoke to me.
A few years later he apparently came to the conclusion that his skin condition (psoriasis) was actually leprosy, and that he had been cursed by god. He took his own life.
------------------------------------------
Oh when I said I would probably laugh in their face, I meant I would probably do that to a relative. I don't have a good relationship with my relatives. I certainly didn't laugh at the mentor I described above. I didn't mean to suggest you should laugh at your loved ones; I certainly don't.
While I obviously don't agree with your mother's position on this issue, as a parent, as a grand parent, I could think of a lot of lifestyles my children or grand children might take up which would be deeply troubling to me.
So yes, as indicated, try to convince her that you are not evil, that you have not trampled on everything she's tried to teach you. You might actively point out some of the way she has been a good influence on you.