As an atheist I strongly believe your god is not real, as well as all other gods we humans have made up over the ages. I am so confident I am right that I am willing to risk what billions of other people alive today and in the past would tell me that I risk and perhaps more importantly what some of my family, friends, neighbors, workmate and other peers that I know would say I risk:
-that I will surely miss out on some sort of version of heaven or afterlife,
-that I will likely go to hell and suffer for an eternity, (depends on the particular religion faction,)
-miss out on judgement day, (and all days/types of reckoning like it, if a particular faith group has it)
-be labeled a demon or infidel, fool, controlled by the devil, etc.
-that I risk what ever particular god's wrath soon, or in the future in this life. (Again depends on particular faith.)
I also happily challenge that if there is any real "god" out there that people worship, to immediately smite me down or punish me for challenging them, or you know, when they can get around to it. Been saying that for over a decade now, still waiting I have already lived longer challenging god's existence then billions of religious believers total life spans. So far my life, (at least in my opinion,) has been great, I have had a few minor mostly expected losses or moments of sadness, but overall I certainly do not feel like I been punished in any way so far, I feel my life has been far better than 99+ percent of all people alive today or have lived. I have a good life currently, I risk all that if it turns out your god is real. I am so confident that your god is not real, I feel I have risked nothing.
Now, on the theist side:
Nearly all the major religions state their their god is all powerful all knowing has a plan for each and every person, and some sort of afterlife reward/lack of punishment if you manage to follow their confusing rule set that is in their books and talked about by the particular religion leaders or in certain copied over books. As long as you follow this rule set, which always include believing in said god, you are set. You did your "freewill" job. Even better most major religions has some sort of sin forgiveness system if you screwed up on the rules. If theist truly believed in their all powerful all knowing gods that has a plan for them, and that they are in this god's good graces, they should have nothing to fear.
So, why don't theist act like they have no fear or doubt? Atheist have no fear or doubts about the lack of your god, why do theist have fears and doubts that their all powerful, all knowing, all good god, that has a plan for them, might somehow fail them? Why would a theist fear anything that is out of their control, because surely their god is in control by the theist very definition of their god. Even if they did not do everything just "right" for god, their god is forgiving, you can be forgiven for any sins, (mistakes,) you have made. As long as your actions are within your gods "rules" to be in his good graces this all powerful all knowing god is there, his plan for you is ultimately a good one. Why do theist fear cancer? Fear the loss of loved ones or their own lives? I feel they are not so confident on at least one aspect of their god. I get that many of these religions rules are vague, contradictory, and confusing, but your god is supposedly a loving god. Yes, these vague rules typically say you need to be humble, but you are also allowed to be forgiven. God is all knowing, he knows that you will in the future be absolved for your sins, if you are going to do so, in his grand plan. Do you not trust in god's grand plan? It is in his "book" and your religion leaders will also tell you so.
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@LogicForTW
Do you like writing books? I normally don't read very long post. Theist have fear of death in it's many forms. It's odd, you think theist would welcome death, it leads to the afterlife. I agree with you about the lack of belief in a god or gods. If I got it wrong and there is a god to judge me when I die, then I have a lot of questions for it. If a god or gods could be proven to exist, it or they would have to do a lot to get me to worship them.
I try to keep my length to a minimum when writing on these forums. I am well aware that if it is long, many people will skip over reading it, they do not have the time in their busy lives. "Sound bites" rule in capturing the attention of the masses. It is why politicians use sound bites, it is why religious leaders use sound bites.
Of course the flaw with sound bites is that they sacrifice information, by themselves, they can be easily deconstructed. So background information is needed. For me, the title was the sound bite. The longer post was backing up the title.
If a god could prove to me beyond all reasonable doubt it was real, and that I had a real possibility of "eternity in paradise," I would worship the shit out of that god, no matter how petty, stupid, crazy, insane, immoral that god was. In some senses, that crazy jihadist that blows himself up is doing the perfectly logical thing. I would do the same thing if a god proved to me beyond all reasonable doubt he was real, and he had heaven waiting for me. I have no idea how a god could do that though, but hey, an all powerful god should be able to do that.
To me it is the same logical decision, that if someone offered me a billion dollars and I knew it was a legitimate, real offer, beyond all reasonable doubt, It would only be logical to strip naked, cover myself in peanut butter and jelly, run in a crowded street screaming its "peanut butter jelly time!" and endure the humiliation for 5 minutes or until I was arrested. If that is what the trade offer was, a humiliating PBJ dance for 1 billion dollars.
@LogicForTW: It's a great reasoning, again.
Thanks SBMontero.
I suppose this statement, along with others I have posted will go without response by the theist that visit these boards. I figured I would try an argument that instead of dealing with facts and evidence, that theist like to step over all the time, I would try a: more emotional based argument.
@LogicForTW: hahahhaha maybe he would recite "even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no..."
@LogicforTw "As an atheist I strongly believe your god is not real"
I have no religious beliefs. As a blank slate, I can look at the religions on offer and assess their believability. Let's look at some of the options available.
Candidate 1: An old bearded cloud fairy creates a garden and puts people in it. They eat an apple, so he kicks them out and later drowns them all except for one family in a boat with some animals. They turn out bad again so he rapes a virgin, who gives birth to a boy who is also cloud fairy and is tortured to death to atone for our sins but comes back to life again.
Candidate 2: A middle-aged man hears messages from an angel, which he records as a holy book. Later he flies from Mecca to Jerusalem and back on a flying donkey (which reminds me of a business class seat I recently experienced on an Emirates 767) with a free stopover in heaven. If I join this religion and then detonate myself, I'll go straight to heaven and get 72 sex slaves.
Candidate 3: The natural world and the fate of people are governed by a group of immortals living on a mountain in Greece.
Candidate 4: The Sun goddess Amaterasu and Moon God Tsukuyomi (her husband and brother) got divorced after he killed the Food Godess Ukemochi for pulling food out of her rectum. She also had a fight with her other brother, Susanoo, the Storm God, after he threw a dead donkey at her. She went into a cave and sulked until the other gods tempted her out by having an orgy outside. And then they all lived happily ever after in Japan.
So far Candidate 3 looks the most feasible to me. But on reflection, I think I'll pass on all of them.
Algebe,
As far as I can determine there's no mention in Islamic literature about the guys getting 72 sex slaves. They get two tall translucent houri and a herd of cute boys but I've never found where it says that they total 72.
What kind of drugs were the Japanese on when they dreamed up their deities?
Which deities speak modern American? I don't want to learn an ancient foreign language even if I do have eternity to learn it.
@Diotrophes: "As far as I can determine there's no mention in Islamic literature about the guys getting 72 sex slaves."
Only two? Well that's a let-down. But I read somewhere they're about 60 feet tall with breasts to match. I don't know what the ancient Japanese were on. Marijuana reportedly grows wild all over Hokkaido, and they also have some pretty weird mushrooms. Where do people get any of this shit?
Don't worry about the language. Just stick a babel fish in your ear.
Algebe,
That's true about their description but the kicker is that the guys might remain their regular sizes. So what will they do with 60 foot tall women? Maybe that's why the women remain virgins and the guys get all of those cute boys. Remember, most of the women are roasting in hell.
Obviously, I too have no religious beliefs. I suppose it is debatable that the statement "I strongly believe your god is not real" is a sort of religious belief, even if it is the antithesis statement of religion/god. Sort of splitting hairs over word definitions. I think we can both agree that our views towards various gods is far more similar than they are different.
Hah! Business class on an Emirates 767 reminds you of riding a flying donkey? I only ever seen pictures/videos of very lavish business class seats on Emirate planes, but then I suppose they do not show you the "bad" ones.
I like how you did the summaries on all 4 options, good humourous stuff. I took of course reject all 4 based on lack of evidence and simple basic reasoning skills.
But gun to my head, if I had to pick out of the 4 which is most likely, I too would probably pick number 3. Mainly because it only has 1 sentence of information instead of a couple.
@LogicForTW " good humourous stuff"
All religions are hilarious when you boil them down to their essentials. But sadly I think I more or less summed up what followers of these religions seriously believe. The Japanese one was mandated by law until WW2, though I never met a Japanese from that era who really took it seriously.
Emirates business class on Airbus planes is great. There's even a bar with free drinks all night. I got a look at first class, too. They have showers!
This is known as coercion and is defined by WordWeb Dictionary as:
* The act of compelling by force of authority.
The pertinence, relevancy, validity and actuality of a god is immediately revealed when a person's following and subjection is, to some degree, ascertained by coercion. For me, no other evidence that a god does NOT exist is required.
Woah, I like how you put that. Have not considered that before.
To me there is dozens if not hundreds of flaws that should be sufficient evidence/reasons alone to know god does not exist. But I agree this coercion point is particularly powerful.
Again, logic is not in the prevailing winds of theism making any atheist diatribe a personal vanity but otherwise suffering wholesale loss of appeal.
To wit -
Of course atheists can present a more strident position on gods than theists. The 5 senses have, as yet, experienced any such revelation. The only product of that can be doubt and it alone has been the focus since time immemorial of the argument for/against gods.
Atheists invest that doubt while theists divest it. There is only that much to be witnessed. It can be seen as the ceremony and pageantry of delusional support systems theists have constructed as their heavenly divestitures of it. Illusions of deluded inventions such as worship doctrines, and their attendant ceremony and pageantry that create the circumstance of belief, will never rid themselves of the annoying doubt all is contrived to combat.
There is no confusion about which side of the argument has the biggest guns. Man will not live in the shadow of doubt. He will seek the light of proof. That defines him. His psyche has never settled for anything less and the body of work he has constructed to channel light to his theological shadows has yet to succeed. Doubt remains and persists, and this is the sullen sadness theology must one day suffer capitulation from, and man himself will embrace it when he is ready to.
Wow Pitar, you have a way with words.
I have to reread your postings several times and get more insight each time I read them.
Each time I read your stuff it becomes clear to me you have given all this more thought then I have, and learned to use concise language to facilitate your thought. I feel like I read and write at a fairly high level, but your postings challenge me to take my reading and writing skills up another level.
Thanks for sharing.