The Basic Message of the Bible

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Sheldon's picture
Another brilliant post, you

Another brilliant post, you sir put us to shame.

"Ignore the drivel being posted about this by a certain individual who postures in that thread as knowing more than actual tenured scientists, and concentrate instead upon said scientists' work."

Quality, one thing I hate are the crackpots making assertions as if they scientific facts on behalf of science, that science seems to have not noticed.

Cognostic's picture
@rosedjantrue:

@rosedjantrue:
"What Christianity is about?" You didn't really just go there did you? "True Christianity?" 30,000 Christian sects, Each and every one of them claiming that it is the religion up the street that is following false teachings and will burn in hell. Who are you trying to kid. Are the Mormons the True Christians? The Jehovah's Witness? The Catholics? The Independent Catholics? The Trinarians? The non-trinarians? The Oriental Orthodox? Anglican? Lutheran? The Adoptionists? The Baptists? The Anabaptists. The Evangelics - Assemblies of God? The Snake Handlers? Westboro Baptists? Please don't go silly on us. If you ask silly questions you are likely to get silly answers.

2. "God hypothesis is a wonderful and ultimate way of controlling masses."
You make it sound evil. Yes it would be a good way of controlling masses; however, I seriously doubt anyone used it in that way. Religion is a means of bonding. From helping to hold small clans, tribes and communities together with a common belief system. Where does the rain come from. Why is there lightening. What is beyond the mountains. Why do some things we eat kill us. What happens when people die. Religion has long answered questions that man could not answer for himself. That is why science keeps pushing religion back and back and back. The more we know, the less we need magic and superstition.

3. I've witnessed many a tyrant who attempted to hide themselves under the disguise of Christianity. I don't buy it for a minute.

And I have witnessed many Christians who are outright tyrants. When you come up with the objective, empirical definition of Christian that all the "Real Christians" can agree on. Let us know.

4. Morality in the Bible. There is no morality in the Bible. There are moral dictates from a murdering, butchering, child killing, raping god. When you say moral what are you talking about.

Imagine I have two children and the older child keeps hitting the younger. I pull the older aside and I tell him, "If you do not hit your sister today, I will give you a dollar." The child then makes it through the day without hitting his sister and earns a dollar. Good for him. Imagine however, I took the child aside and told him, "If you hit your sister again I will beat you with my belt and send you to bed with no supper." Again the child does not hit his sister. How are either of these situations "Moral." In the first the child only avoids bad behavior to get a reward. In the second the child avoids bad behavior to avoid being punished. As long as there is a heaven and a hell where rewards and punishments are doled out, there is no morality. Moral acts are actions done by adults for no other reason than they are the right thing to do. Not to please a god. Not to avoid angering a god. Not to get to a heaven. Not to avoid a Hell. A moral act is altruistic and there is no altruism in the bible. NONE!

5. "Why there is ultimate good and evil if there is no author of that standard to begin with."

6. ULTIMATE STANDARD OF MORALITY: Well, it's obvious now that all that Critical Thinking stuff you were talking about is just not there. Please demonstrate an ultimate standard of good or evil. And just for fun, try to make it one that your God has not actually done himself. You seem to know a whole lot about ultimate standards and authentic Christians. Have you thought of wondering what those words mean?

7. Morality is evolutionary beneficial to us that we as a society simply do not do because of morality. Why is this?)

One of the greatest survival mechanisms of early mankind was his ability to work together in groups. This means, don't steal what belongs to another. Who does what work. How you treat other members. What to do when there are arguments. Who eats first. Where do you relieve yourself. And so on and so on and so on. Throughout history anyone unable or unwilling to follow the clan, tribe, society, is either removed from it or eliminated. (Their genes do not duplicate.) We still to this today. If you can not get along in society, you are removed from it and incarcerated or you are executed. Morality is a social convention. It is not dictated from a butchering, murdering god that is going to torture you forever in a pit of burning fire if you do not do as he says.,

8. I do not wonder about miracles. There have been none evidenced in my lifetime. Why would I think, ignorant iron age peasants who believed in magic could tell me anything about miracles. Magicians performed back then and they still perform today.

9/ Miracles - You need to familiarize yourself with "Group Think" and crowd dynamics. Re Miricles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JI-0py-YQY

You might be better off opening a seperate thread for each of your questions. My struggle in responding to any of these is to be short so that you can read them easily. You are asking questions that scholars do not agree upon.

hannahrose31's picture
I know I sound like a broken

I know I sound like a broken record, but again, I love having this dialogue! Also I think @ Cognostic is right in that the thread is getting overwhelmed because there are so many topics coming up at once now. My fault for introducing such a vague subject.

My assignment for my spiritual philosophy class is not only to ask you what you guys believe the basic message of the Bible is, but to also express what I believe the basic message of the Bible is. So any takers?? I would prefer for it to be in PM because I'd hate to clog up the forum with individual conversations if possible.

Also one more thing @Cognostic just for clarity. The phrase - "God hypothesis is a wonderful and ultimate way of controlling masses." - was not mine. I was responding to the question of another person in the forum. Just wanted to make that clear. Lol.

I'm more than happy to continue this discussion though! You brought up a lot of intriguing points and I'd be more than happy to share with you my answers.

Just so you all know, this has been a great experience for me! I've loved hearing all of your different points of view. It's super helpful to hear what atheists actually think instead of simply being told these inaccurate predictions about how atheists think. Lol XD Wish more people would these types of conversations! And actually, whether you all know it or not, many of your answers have been reaffirming many of the things I believe. So I definitely appreciate that! Sometimes the best way to build your defense is to hear what the other side has to say.

Again, you guys have been great! There are many things we obviously don't agree on, but I hope that I have represented myself in a civil manner. It was not my intent to waltz in here and pick a fight. I don't think that's a very effective strategy. Nor is it productive when people waltz in with this "because-I-said-so" attitude. I am a person who wants to know the truth. So if I can be proved wrong, I want to be proved wrong. In my experience the evidence for my faith has been so overwhelming, it would require more faith to turn my back on it than to simply accept it. I'm a very young college student who is definitely not as well-versed in certain areas as many of you are, but I will continue to not shy away from research from all angles!

Sheldon's picture
This>>>"Nor is it productive

This>>>"Nor is it productive when people waltz in with this "because-I-said-so" attitude."

...is pretty funny when followed by...

This>>>"In my experience the evidence for my faith has been so overwhelming, it would require more faith to turn my back on it than to simply accept it. "

Unless of course this is "evidence" we can see demonstrated with something more than "because-you-said-so"?

terraphon's picture
I am a person who wants to

I am a person who wants to know the truth. So if I can be proved wrong, I want to be proved wrong.

When I read this, I thought "hmm...is she serious? If she is, she's going to end up atheist before this is all over."

Then I read this:

In my experience the evidence for my faith has been so overwhelming, it would require more faith to turn my back on it than to simply accept it.

And I got sad. That word - "Faith".

Faith is the polar opposite of evidence. The two can never share the same space. Matter and antimatter.

How unfortunate.

mverkamp's picture
Hi Hannah. I would like to

Hi Hannah. I would like to engage on this topic, and am ok to do it in this forum.

I believe the basic message of the bible is one of God's pursuit of man, who was made in His image, yet who fell short of the eternal glory of God through sin. From beginning to end the bible is about relationships, culminating in the ultimate act of love in which God takes the sin of man upon Himself and pays the price of that sin. The bible says that wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. That gift, which is undeserved, is called grace.

Sapporo's picture
If God has paid the price of

If God has paid the price of our alleged sin, but chooses to torture most of humanity for eternity anyway, that would make it the most evil being in existence, not the most loving.

Sheldon's picture
Is it ever moal for a 50 year

My apologies I had mixed up In Search of Truth, with Searches for Truth.

I have removed the post, and I apologise for my error.

If anyone wants me I shall be scrubbing egg off my face.

hannahrose31's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

"We would all like you to engage on the topics you started as well, but you prefer to do a brave Sir Robin, then peek a boo in to pretend you want debate and discussion."

I apologize if that's how I'm seeming to you all! There is nothing more I would like to do than to tackle each of these individual issues with you all. However, I am a college student, and my schedule does not permit me to be able to spend a great deal of time here as much as I would love to do so! Also, my initial intent behind opening this thread was to get an understanding of what you all believe the basic message of the Bible to be while also sharing what I believe the basic message of the Bible is (since that was my original assignment for the class I'm in). I was not counting on the subject splintering into so many different topics all at once. Lol. My mistake!

Also, many of the questions you just proposed had to do with the religion of Islam. I do not believe in Islam. In fact, I do believe that you raise some seriously legitimate questions regarding its morality! Some of the points you brought up are some of the very reasons why *I* don't believe Islam can be true. Yay agreement! Even in 2019! It's possible folks! Lol.

Sky Pilot's picture
rosedjan,

rosedjan,

"I was not counting on the subject splintering into so many different topics all at once. Lol. My mistake!"

I don't think the subject has splintered into many topics, other than the introduction about the Koran and other people's opinions.

The general consensus is that the Bible does not teach morality and that its main objective is to teach obedience and loyalty. Do you agree? If so then you have your answer and you can disregard the other comments.

Take a few minutes to review the comments and see if that is the case. You can then thank everyone for their contribution and explore other areas if you want to.

Tin-Man's picture
@Rosedjan Re: To Sheldon -

@Rosedjan Re: To Sheldon - "I apologize if that's how I'm seeming to you all!..."

Hey, if it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty sure Sheldon was not addressing you in that post.... *chuckle*... It would seem he was responding to the In Search of Truth post thinking it was one of our regular Muslim members who "graces" us with his presence every so often. Just a case of mistaken identity. No worries... *grin*...

Sheldon's picture
Coreect, I had mistaken the

Coreect, I had mistaken the poster In Search of Truth, for Searches For Truth.

It appears I owe a second apology to ISOT, my bad, I apologise profusely for the error.

Sheldon's picture
My post was not aimed at you,

My post was not aimed at you, my apologies for the confusion, but at a longstanding poster SFT, who makes assertions then ignore any questions or posts that submit his vapid claims to proper critical scrutiny.

He loves to throw the word hate around at people who reject his beliefs, and has zero interest in proper debate.

Again my apologies for the confusion, I will edit my post to reflect more clearly who I was responding to.

Tin-Man's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

...*whispering*... Pssst... Hey, I don't think that is the Hulkster (SFT).

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM
...* also whispering* ..." I think you are right"

David Killens's picture
I have not seen the

I have not seen the Incredible Sulk for awhile.

Cognostic's picture
"Spiritual Philosophy" Ha

"Spiritual Philosophy" Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... Now there is a mouthful. I am sure we would all love to hear your definition of "spirit."

Another thread - too much happening here.

Sheldon's picture
Spiritual philosophy changed

Spiritual philosophy changed my life, well that and unicorn powder. You can scoff, but I feel its effects in my toenail clippings.

Cognostic's picture
@rosedjan: Here is a

@rosedjan: Here is a thought for you. Not all those professing to be atheists on the site are necessarily reputable. I suggest you click on the picture the people are using and check their "Forum Agrees" Those with a lot of "Agrees" are probably more representative of the forum. Just a suggestion. Christians are not the only flakes on the site. Most of us would be happy to respond to your questions. PM or in the forums. This is what we do for fun.

dogalmighty's picture
Don't listen to him...he is a

Don't listen to him...he is a chimp. Do you regularly listen to chimps?

Cognostic's picture
Or Check privately with

Or Check privately with someone who has High Agrees about using someone. doG is one of the good guys but has not been around long.

dogalmighty's picture
...also, he is using a manual

...also, he is using a manual typewriter for cripes sakes.

Tin-Man's picture
@doG Re: "..also, he is

@doG Re: "..also, he is using a manual typewriter for cripes sakes."

Hey, in Cog's defense, he is actually capable of using an electric typewriter. Problem, though, is that he would continually drool all over the damn thing and cause it to short circuit. That's why we finally had to switch him to manual. Sure, it starts rusting over time, but much slower than electrical failures, at least.

Cognostic's picture
Have you ever tried to sling

Have you ever tried to sling poo with an electric. Shit just goes wrong. Take the manual, dip it in the river, put the ribbon back on and I'm good for another 24 hours.

Nyarlathotep's picture
The faith of the average

rosedjan - The faith of the average human being has decreased dramatically.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect what you told us about "decreasing faith" is an example of the kind of dialog you suggested is not productive:

rosedjan - Nor is it productive when people waltz in with this "because-I-said-so" attitude.

------------------------------------------------------------------
But maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong could you please tell us:

  1. How do you know that faith is decreasing?
  2. Or rephrased: how much faith did the average human being have say 1500 years ago, and how much does the average human have today?
  3. Or rephrased another way: how does one measure the quantity of someone's faith?
  4. Or yet another way: the dimensions of speed are distance/time; what are the dimension of faith?
Cognostic's picture
@Nyarlathotep

@Nyarlathotep
I don't think she has a working definition of faith. I took it to mean Churches were closing and empty pew syndrome is a serious problem. Statistically speaking, people seem to be less religiously inclined. Your point is solidly made, there is no way to measure "faith." It is a nonsense word,

Sky Pilot's picture
Cognostic,

Cognostic,

"Your point is solidly made, there is no way to measure "faith.""

According to the Bible it is very easy to measure faith.

Take your shoes off and walk across a deep lake barefoot on top of the water without any aids.

Walk outside and command a tree to uproot itself and to jump into the nearest pond. If it does as you command without any outside help then you have faith.

Ask to walk on Mars tomorrow at 9a.m. and if it happens you have faith.

Pray to become a Christian by next Sunday and if it happens you have faith.

Cognostic's picture
@Diotrephes

@Diotrephes
I'm sure those are perfectly logical responses to the measurment of faith in WooWoo lang. The next time I am walking on Mars I will send you an "agree." LOL
I like some of the Christian ones.

You could live inside a giant fish for 3 days.
You could kill your daughter for God when she walks out the door to greet you.
You could hang upside down on a cross and let yourself be killed.
You could rip open the stomachs of pregnant women and dash their babies on rocks.
You could hate your mother, father, sister, brother, aunts and uncles.
You could kill anyone who tries to sway you from your faith.

Hmmmm According to the Bible - a person can measure faith. (The Bible is Wrong) Ha ha ha ha ha.....

Sky Pilot's picture
Cognostic,

Cognostic,

"You could live inside a giant fish for 3 days.
You could kill your daughter for God when she walks out the door to greet you.
You could hang upside down on a cross and let yourself be killed.
You could rip open the stomachs of pregnant women and dash their babies on rocks.
You could hate your mother, father, sister, brother, aunts and uncles.
You could kill anyone who tries to sway you from your faith."

Those actions are not really examples of faith. They demonstrate obedience and loyalty and are based on the Ten Commandments, Exodus 34:11-28. Faith-based actions are based on Exodus 34:10.

Nyarlathotep's picture
rosedjan - Even if they

rosedjan - Even if they misinterpreted what happened, there are still too many claims of the supernatural for me to lump them all together under one category and scoff at them as a whole.

I guessing you don't have any trouble disregarding the supernatural claims of other religions that contradict yours?

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