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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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TJump,
Do you have a printed version available of your YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHXrvsK33VUEcpa4Ar0c0Sg
I realize that you have to speak fast to get through all that material, but I need a printed version so that I can poke around at my own pace. I can see the value of the conceptual world in that we can choose parts of it (some branches of math for example) that give excellent approximations in the physical world. However, I don't see any use for the metaphysical world in understanding our physical world. One is using, or easily gets into, non-falsifiable ideas that can't supply reliable knowledge about our physical world. The metaphysical world ideas seems ripe with confusion if we try to apply them to the realm of atoms and energy that we know about.
Greensnake, that link is to my homepage, if you go to the video link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb7mkGeoAu4, there is a '...' symbol next to the links/dislikes and if you click on and it will give you the option to 'open transcript' which will show the text version of what i said though it is not perfect.
I agree from an atheistic worldview the metaphysical does not have much value, which is why people like AJ ayer (the Vienna Circle) said metaphysics was meaningless. However i am attempting to incorporate the perspectives of all three worldviews like a Rosetta stone incorporating all the different languages so those of each worldview can hopefully understand those of the other worldviews.
TJump,
here is a suggestion. watch godless cranium. study him. he is better than you. BUT THAT IS ONLY MY OPINION.
just a suggestion. also watch paulogia, holy koolaid, aron ra, seth andrews. seth andrews can be quite hilarious and he has many many years experience being a talk show radio host as a christian for some 20 years.
take heart buddy, you might come up with something new.
me, i am like AU said. i use the classics and stick with what has worked for me.
rmfr
arakish, i have subscribed to all their channels theists do not find any of there arguments very compelling... mine are better than any of theirs. And i would love the opportunity to prove it.
Hi there, @TJump and welcome to the forum, even though you entered like a bull in a china store.
@Arakish: "just a suggestion. also watch paulogia, holy koolaid, aron ra, seth andrews"
You: "do not find any of there arguments very compelling... mine are better than any of theirs."
"Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it." B. Franklin.
I'm not sure to which of those categories you belong... Hmm...
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Flamenca, I have already watched most of the videos from all major atheist channels (you can see my subscriptions on my channel), so i have already taken his advice before he gave it.
@TJump. I watched your video. You can't be serious when you say you're better than Seth Andrews or Aaron Ra. I'm not trying to sound disrespectful and I admire your effort and interest in the subject, but it sounds like a joke.
Flamenca, i appreciate the feedback but you haven't explained what you mean. How are my arguments not better than theirs? How are their arguments better?
@Tjump: Briefly, it's not so much a question of arguments (Religions' arguments and their counter-arguments are limited, and they all have been approached in more or less similar ways by different thinkers -just stick around in this forum long enough and you will be able to grasp those different answers to the same questions, and you'll understand why people are facepalming themselves with the name of your thread-), but I said that mainly because they are much better at communication than you are, in terms of flow, clarity and the ability for entertaining.
Flamenca, I never said i was a better communicator... i said my arguments were better.
The best argument are the ones that can convince the apologists. the argument of those youtubers don't, and the perspective of the people on this forum also probably don't... mine do.
What evidence do you have to support that your arguments are better at convincing apologists? I am not sure any good argument could convince any apologist, but anyway I can tell I've watched Aaron Ra debating professional famous apologists, and he's pretty good at that. Can you share any video of yours like that to compare? (I mean facing an apologist)
All i have is my personal experiencing talking with professional apologists, and you should not believe me based on personal experience. The reason i am starting these forums is that i am looking for opportunities to participate in such conversations and post them on my youtube to demonstrate just how effective my arugments are.
Also i have seen all of Aron ra's debate but i do not recall him convincing any apologists of the validity of his arguments.
Fair enough. You can test yourself in the forums and we all can see if you change some believers minds. Good luck (no sarcasm, it's a real wish, and you'll certainly need it).
If not Aaron Ra, can you think of any good example of any atheist who convinced any apologist of the validity of their counter- argument? (I refuse to call ours arguments). I'm really intrigued. Because I think the debates are for more the listeners than for the debaters.
The best examples i can think of are Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, David Hume, their arguments had a real impact in changing the minds of many apologists in the time they were alive.
The modern apologists have reframed there arguments and i think modern atheist end up missing the point the theist are trying to make and so most atheist responses don't convince any thiests. Which is hwy i think we need to adopt the theist definition/perspective to show them why there argument don't work (Like what my arguments are doing)
TJump,
I suspect that those who arrive at a position because of personal needs, instead of reason, will not abandon that position because of reason. If people like William Lane Craig were open to reason, then they would have abandoned their shattered arguments a long time ago. Best of luck!
Could you name any apologist who changed his mind? And through debate? People like Sagan?
I think that Alvin Plantinga and Richard Swinburne presented arguments many philosopher find interesting, but i don't think many academic atheists have ever been convinced by them.
Theism has so many massive problems that haven't been addressed, that i don't think many academic atheists have been influenced by theist arguments.
You get the answer backward... Probably my fault. I wasn't very specific in my last post.
- What particular apologists have ever changed their minds through debate?
- Do you remember any atheist counter-argument that worked with an apologist?
In regards to specific arguments I only know about the ones i have used to change theists minds.
There are many lists online of christians who have converted to non theism, such as most college students due to the argument of those philosophers i listed, Matt Dillahunty would be one example. But i don't know which specific arguments are the ones that converted them. I think it was more of realization over a long period of time.
Okay, but what apologists have you convinced with your arguments? Because you said that your arguments were successful in your goal of convincing apologists.
None who are willing to have recorded conversations that i can put on youtube, which is why i'm looking for opportunities to have more public conversations/debates, was hoping someone on our forum might know somebody like that
@TJump
Perhaps you could try the Christian forums? They'd have to be a more fertile hunting ground for apologists than atheist forums.
Sorry AU and Flam for jumping in...
@TJump
Here is another suggestion. Do NOT go into any debate with the idea of actually convincing an Absolutist Apologist to convert. That shall NEVER happen. Apologists are just too far gone to bring back into the realm of rationality.
Instead, go into the debates with the idea of OPPOSING an Apologists arguments in the hopes of preventing that Apologist of converting the Undecideds and Doubters. They are the ones you need to focus on. NOT the Apologists.
No disrespect meant, just that you are going about "debating" wrong.
rmfr
arakish, i am far to ambitious to be satisfied with convincing an impartial audience... that is to easy. I want to convince the apologists. And i have had success doing so.
@TJump
As AU asked (paraphrased)...
Do you have hard empirical evidence we can subject to scrutiny to back those claims?
As for me, no I do not have any evidence at the debates I have participated in. All I can do was hope a seed was planted.
One of my favorite tactics is to point out all the evil, heinous, and horrific acts God does in the Old Testament. Then point out the verses: John 1:1 and John 10:30
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
"I and my Father are one."
Although Jesus tries to come off as the peaceful hippy, he also freely admits that he is also as evil as his God the Father.
Biggest contradiction no Apologist has ever been able to answer. At least I ain't seen an answer.
rmfr
Like i have said multiple times, the reason i have created these forums posts is because i am looking for opportunities to provide hard evidence hoping someone one the forum would know some apologists willing to do youtube hangouts or debates.
The apologist answer to your objection is that god may have some reason for allowing/causing that perceived evil that may result in greater good in the future. Like how parents punish children to teach them a lesson... therefore the deaths of those people was a sacrifice for the good of many more people (except why wouldn't god being all powerful just skip the suffering and death part?)... because he allows us the free will to choose forcing him to make us suffer, oh the irony.. something like that.
@Arakish
Re: "Biggest contradiction no Apologist has ever been able to answer. At least I ain't seen an answer."
They're often stunned into silence by what their Good Book actually says. If I had a dollar for every Christian I've come across who's never read the Bible I'd be a very wealthy woman. I've lost count of how many times I've had to show them chapter and verse to convince them I'm not making stuff up or spruiking atheist propaganda. Catholics are the worst because they're taught not to read the Bible for themselves- ask a priest instead. Worrying when you consider the overwhelming majority of Christians are Catholics.
Incidentally @TJump, from what Matt Dillahunty has said, it was actually reading the Bible rather than atheist arguments that set him on the deconversion path. He couldn't reconcile the god of love he'd been taught about all his life with the monster in the book. The scales fell off his eyes and his faith fell apart.
Thump are you aware of triumphalism in theist circles? It's their latest trick.
Also I will debate you as a theist, which I'm not but will still do it for shits and giggles.
I will follow the TAG playbook.
I do however have a lot of trouble posting and editing on this forum so you will get low quality posts, you up for it, will be fun.
Sorry I'm late to the party!
Perfectly valid argument; so is mine:
Oh, Nyar, you return. King of the moon! Fuck 'em up!
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